Is it really just about range?
Discussion
I was reading a test of the Audi etron GT the other day and it concludes with
—
Still, 250 miles isn’t exactly vorsprung durch technik, is it? Alternatives from Tesla, Mercedes-Benz and even Hyundai and Kia do better, often for less outlay. As far as I’m concerned, the E-tron GT nails the lot of them in terms of desirability, but it isn’t the most innovative thing, which is a shame.
—
I don’t know about you guys but I don’t tend to buy cars based on how large the fuel tank is or how long it takes to fill it up but it’s clearly a major obsession with EVs to the point that it seemingly matters more than the actual car bits.
If you really care about range or time to fill the car, I have a suggestion: don’t buy an EV.
It seems reasonable therefore to conclude that for most EV buyers range is not the end all be all so maybe let’s focus on the driving etc? You know, the actual thing you will experience in a car.
For me and I’m guessing most others a 250 mile range is just fine. I find it bizarre that this would somehow invalidate all the good points of a car and I should instead get a Kia or whatever.
—
Still, 250 miles isn’t exactly vorsprung durch technik, is it? Alternatives from Tesla, Mercedes-Benz and even Hyundai and Kia do better, often for less outlay. As far as I’m concerned, the E-tron GT nails the lot of them in terms of desirability, but it isn’t the most innovative thing, which is a shame.
—
I don’t know about you guys but I don’t tend to buy cars based on how large the fuel tank is or how long it takes to fill it up but it’s clearly a major obsession with EVs to the point that it seemingly matters more than the actual car bits.
If you really care about range or time to fill the car, I have a suggestion: don’t buy an EV.
It seems reasonable therefore to conclude that for most EV buyers range is not the end all be all so maybe let’s focus on the driving etc? You know, the actual thing you will experience in a car.
For me and I’m guessing most others a 250 mile range is just fine. I find it bizarre that this would somehow invalidate all the good points of a car and I should instead get a Kia or whatever.
How long a fuel tank takes to fill up has never been an issue before - they all fill at the same rate. It is, however, a fundamental difference when moving from an ICE to an EV.
If ‘filling’ time is fast and widely available, then range is less of an issue.
That said, even with ICE it can get annoying - I used to own a Mazda RX8 and having to fill up every 180 miles got annoying. Can only imagine how much more annoying it would have been if there hadn’t been 9000 odd filling stations in the Uk and I took 30 mins or longer to re-fuel.
If ‘filling’ time is fast and widely available, then range is less of an issue.
That said, even with ICE it can get annoying - I used to own a Mazda RX8 and having to fill up every 180 miles got annoying. Can only imagine how much more annoying it would have been if there hadn’t been 9000 odd filling stations in the Uk and I took 30 mins or longer to re-fuel.
Edited by survivalist on Sunday 27th August 21:42
250 in reality is probably 200 in summer and 150 in winter which isn't enough for most people. Most want to charge once a week if they don't have access to home charging or have enough for a long weekend away if they do. I've had cars that do less than 200 miles to a tank of fuel, a real pain and others that will break four figures which is great as I often do 800+ mile journeys in one day.
I suspect 300-400 mile range is the sweet spot that most wouldn't feel was a downgrade from their existing petrol car.
I suspect 300-400 mile range is the sweet spot that most wouldn't feel was a downgrade from their existing petrol car.
Crusoe said:
250 in reality is probably 200 in summer and 150 in winter which isn't enough for most people. Most want to charge once a week if they don't have access to home charging or have enough for a long weekend away if they do. I've had cars that do less than 200 miles to a tank of fuel, a real pain and others that will break four figures which is great as I often do 800+ mile journeys in one day.
I suspect 300-400 mile range is the sweet spot that most wouldn't feel was a downgrade from their existing petrol car.
Spoken as a true non-EV owner.I suspect 300-400 mile range is the sweet spot that most wouldn't feel was a downgrade from their existing petrol car.
No way in hell 250 mile “official” range only translates to 200 miles in summer. 220-230 more likely. As for “most” wanting to charge once per week, I really don’t know where to start, but it’s a laughable statement, you can’t compare recharging with refuelling, they are massively different propositions.
My 440i averages 275-310 miles a tank. My Model 3 Performance around 250-280 (extrapolated, I rarely charge above 80% or discharge below 20%). The 440i is the more annoying to refuel. The Tesla just sits there on the drive, refilling itself whilst I get on with life, it’s doing it right now infact.
Crusoe said:
250 in reality is probably 200 in summer and 150 in winter which isn't enough for most people. Most want to charge once a week if they don't have access to home charging or have enough for a long weekend away if they do. I've had cars that do less than 200 miles to a tank of fuel, a real pain and others that will break four figures which is great as I often do 800+ mile journeys in one day.
I suspect 300-400 mile range is the sweet spot that most wouldn't feel was a downgrade from their existing petrol car.
I had an etron gt.I suspect 300-400 mile range is the sweet spot that most wouldn't feel was a downgrade from their existing petrol car.
250 miles is normal, real-world range.
I was getting 260-270 miles in summer. Maybe 240 in winter.
For ‘most people’ that’s completely sufficient. I never had Range anxiety and mine was a company car so I was travelling for work.
Most people think they need more range, but they actually don’t.
The motoring press became so obsessed with range that half the time they almost forgot to review the actual car..
Range shouldn't be a factor unless it's insufficient for day to day life using the car. A car with 300 miles range is no better than one with 200 miles range if 200 miles is enough for the driver - which is almost always the case.
I think with hindsight we'll laugh at the old obsession with range. What will prove to matter most is that our cars are ready to do a day's driving and are fast and efficient - which is what EV drivers quickly become accustomed to. Even if once in a blue moon they do have to factor in a stop to charge.
As if they used to drive 5 hours straight and not need a pee and a sandwich anyway...
Range shouldn't be a factor unless it's insufficient for day to day life using the car. A car with 300 miles range is no better than one with 200 miles range if 200 miles is enough for the driver - which is almost always the case.
I think with hindsight we'll laugh at the old obsession with range. What will prove to matter most is that our cars are ready to do a day's driving and are fast and efficient - which is what EV drivers quickly become accustomed to. Even if once in a blue moon they do have to factor in a stop to charge.
As if they used to drive 5 hours straight and not need a pee and a sandwich anyway...
At the moment most EV owners are likely to have charging at home or work so for those who have a commute to a fixed workplace a reasonable distance from home, 200 miles is plenty. The problem is that a decent number of those in that situation have already made the jump to EV or have considered it. The remainder are those who have to rely on public charging due to the nature of their work or their home charging situation and would likely not want to spend a significant amount of time waiting on the car charging when they are used to filling up in a few minutes. It's those people who are likely to need greater range and who need convincing that cars are available which suit them.
Personally my car does about 220 miles on a full charge and I mainly charge for free at work once a week which is 30 miles away. Other than the odd top up off a granny charger at home, this covers me for almost all my normal usage. My situation is probably close to ideal for current owners of EVs but for every one of me, there is someone else who who does 200 miles in a day and has nowhere to charge at home or work.
Personally my car does about 220 miles on a full charge and I mainly charge for free at work once a week which is 30 miles away. Other than the odd top up off a granny charger at home, this covers me for almost all my normal usage. My situation is probably close to ideal for current owners of EVs but for every one of me, there is someone else who who does 200 miles in a day and has nowhere to charge at home or work.
Every EV review seems to obsess over range. We’ve recently moved to an EV for family duties, it gets the expected range quoted give or take 10 or so miles depending on driving style. 99% of the time it’s used for local trips and is perfect, charge once a week and costs approx 7p a mile. We’re on our first long trip in it and it’s been ok, we have to stop for the kids anyway so have just coordinated this with charging.
The real problem is cost, home charging and local trips are more cost effective in the EV, but charging on public chargers particularly at a good speed is expensive. A rapid charger yesterday was £31 for 153 miles, which is 20p a mile which makes it about 7p more a mile than the diesel car it replaced.
The real problem is cost, home charging and local trips are more cost effective in the EV, but charging on public chargers particularly at a good speed is expensive. A rapid charger yesterday was £31 for 153 miles, which is 20p a mile which makes it about 7p more a mile than the diesel car it replaced.
Edited by BlindedByTheLights on Sunday 27th August 22:12
Crusoe said:
250 in reality is probably 200 in summer and 150 in winter which isn't enough for most people. Most want to charge once a week if they don't have access to home charging or have enough for a long weekend away if they do. I've had cars that do less than 200 miles to a tank of fuel, a real pain and others that will break four figures which is great as I often do 800+ mile journeys in one day.
I suspect 300-400 mile range is the sweet spot that most wouldn't feel was a downgrade from their existing petrol car.
800 miles in a day? Assuming a very optimistic 50mph average that means you're driving for 16 hours a day, often. If you were a commercial driver you'd be arrested for that.I suspect 300-400 mile range is the sweet spot that most wouldn't feel was a downgrade from their existing petrol car.
Why are you driving such distances so often?? Surely plane or train makes more sense if you have that much ground to cover?
I know a few people who got the original e-from thing (looks like a Q5 but a bit squished) and all were disappointed and got out as soon as possible.
Issue was that people who aren’t excited by EV (or cars in general) just got them because they were cheap on company car schemes. They were fine day to day, but the expectation is that they could be used for weekends away and family holidays. Once the bikes were on the back of the car and the roof box was on (luggage space being pretty rubbish due to the batteries) the rage dropped dramatically.
Possibly less of an issue with the GT, but most people don’t expect to have to change their behaviour to accommodate a new car, hence their expectations aren’t met.
As such the car magazines are just doing their job.
Issue was that people who aren’t excited by EV (or cars in general) just got them because they were cheap on company car schemes. They were fine day to day, but the expectation is that they could be used for weekends away and family holidays. Once the bikes were on the back of the car and the roof box was on (luggage space being pretty rubbish due to the batteries) the rage dropped dramatically.
Possibly less of an issue with the GT, but most people don’t expect to have to change their behaviour to accommodate a new car, hence their expectations aren’t met.
As such the car magazines are just doing their job.
Tesla Bjorn's 1000km test is a reasonable real world comparison of range and rapid charge speeds, often multiple charges, but also is something that few if any of us will ever need to do.
So no, total range isn't necessarily the most important thing, it goes hand in hand with charge speed.
The fat e-tron was quite inefficient, but also very good rapid charging upto circa 95%.
So no, total range isn't necessarily the most important thing, it goes hand in hand with charge speed.
The fat e-tron was quite inefficient, but also very good rapid charging upto circa 95%.
I would happily swap longer range for faster charging.
For the majority of my driving 250 miles is plenty for trips without public charging.
The last 2 weeks I’ve done about 1,200 miles and realised just how much time, 250 miles is that you’re sat in the car.
Driving from the Midlands to Wales and back (about 220 miles) at an average speed of 30mph, is a long time to not take a break, especially if you have children.
So many diesel drivers claim they need over 600 miles of range - really !?
Charge whilst having a break - often the car is ready before you are.
For the majority of my driving 250 miles is plenty for trips without public charging.
The last 2 weeks I’ve done about 1,200 miles and realised just how much time, 250 miles is that you’re sat in the car.
Driving from the Midlands to Wales and back (about 220 miles) at an average speed of 30mph, is a long time to not take a break, especially if you have children.
So many diesel drivers claim they need over 600 miles of range - really !?
Charge whilst having a break - often the car is ready before you are.
Edited by SDK on Sunday 27th August 22:26
SDK said:
I would happily swap longer range for faster charging.
For the majority of my driving 250 miles is plenty for trips without public charging.
The last 2 weeks I’ve done about 1,200 miles and realised just how much time, 250 miles is that you’re sat in the car.
Driving from the Midlands to Wales and back (about 220 miles) at an average speed of 30mph, is a long time to not take a break, especially if you have children.
So many diesel drivers claim they need over 600 miles of range - really !?
Charge whilst having a break - often the car is ready before you are.
Exactly..For the majority of my driving 250 miles is plenty for trips without public charging.
The last 2 weeks I’ve done about 1,200 miles and realised just how much time, 250 miles is that you’re sat in the car.
Driving from the Midlands to Wales and back (about 220 miles) at an average speed of 30mph, is a long time to not take a break, especially if you have children.
So many diesel drivers claim they need over 600 miles of range - really !?
Charge whilst having a break - often the car is ready before you are.
Edited by SDK on Sunday 27th August 22:26
I don't stop any more often in the EV than I used to in the ICE. I stop because I need to stop - the only difference is I now sometimes charge during that stop.
I'm not spending anymore time stopped as a result. I am however spending a lot less time in petrol stations getting bent over for £100 on a near weekly basis. I don't miss that.
Evanivitch said:
Tesla Bjorn's 1000km test is a reasonable real world comparison of range and rapid charge speeds, often multiple charges, but also is something that few if any of us will ever need to do.
So no, total range isn't necessarily the most important thing, it goes hand in hand with charge speed.
The fat e-tron was quite inefficient, but also very good rapid charging upto circa 95%.
Probably true, but those in know that had one said that finding a fast(ish) charger was a pain in itself. All now have ICE / Hybrid for the family car. Some have stuck with EV for a smaller runaround (ID3 and a Kia of some sort). So no, total range isn't necessarily the most important thing, it goes hand in hand with charge speed.
The fat e-tron was quite inefficient, but also very good rapid charging upto circa 95%.
Makes sense for the use. I’d do the same if there weren’t so many more interesting options for the price of a ‘local use’ EV.
survivalist said:
Probably true, but those in know that had one said that finding a fast(ish) charger was a pain in itself. All now have ICE / Hybrid for the family car. Some have stuck with EV for a smaller runaround (ID3 and a Kia of some sort).
Makes sense for the use. I’d do the same if there weren’t so many more interesting options for the price of a ‘local use’ EV.
My Niro efficiency with 2 bikes and a heavy foot is appalling, I dread to think how bad a fat e-tron is with additional drag.Makes sense for the use. I’d do the same if there weren’t so many more interesting options for the price of a ‘local use’ EV.
The charging infrastructure along the M4 South Wales has increased dramatically in the last 12 months with 5 new charging hubs with many chargers at each location. Anyone that has gone back to ICE for 2+ years will eventually return to a vastly improved EV infrastructure, but in the meantime I'm sure they'll talk about their outdated experience.
TheDeuce said:
800 miles in a day? Assuming a very optimistic 50mph average that means you're driving for 16 hours a day, often. If you were a commercial driver you'd be arrested for that.
Why are you driving such distances so often?? Surely plane or train makes more sense if you have that much ground to cover?
North of Scotland to London or Cambridge, family and friends down that way and need the car when there etc. I've a 165mile commute once a week so not a big deal to go further, and easily average more than 60mph and more than 70mpg. Most I've done is Silverstone and back in one day for a short notice F1 tyre testing day, 1000 miles or so.Why are you driving such distances so often?? Surely plane or train makes more sense if you have that much ground to cover?
The issue for me is how varied the range/ consumption is.
I’ve never once worried about weather, what setting for heating, wind direction etc but they all genuinely make a difference to electric vehicles.
Our long journeys are always away from rush hour and normally with roof box or small trailer due to dogs and kids etc.
Our range in a 5.0V8 SUV is 380 miles to a tank and up to 450 miles to a tank. This is travelling at the higher cruising speeds I like but not aggressively. Each long journey we take like that would require an extra stop.
We tried to get a ZOE when they were doing the good deals, £170 a month a few years back as it would be a great car for small trips and when it was just one of us but we missed out.
We don’t stop that often on car journeys and when we have done, seeing the queues at chargers etc and the non guaranteed charging times really puts me off.
It will be suitable for us at some point but currently nothing fits.
Dave!
I’ve never once worried about weather, what setting for heating, wind direction etc but they all genuinely make a difference to electric vehicles.
Our long journeys are always away from rush hour and normally with roof box or small trailer due to dogs and kids etc.
Our range in a 5.0V8 SUV is 380 miles to a tank and up to 450 miles to a tank. This is travelling at the higher cruising speeds I like but not aggressively. Each long journey we take like that would require an extra stop.
We tried to get a ZOE when they were doing the good deals, £170 a month a few years back as it would be a great car for small trips and when it was just one of us but we missed out.
We don’t stop that often on car journeys and when we have done, seeing the queues at chargers etc and the non guaranteed charging times really puts me off.
It will be suitable for us at some point but currently nothing fits.
Dave!
Less range more charge anxiety….
I recently changed from a 520d to a model 3…. I do approx 20,000 miles a year and the Tesla quotes 396 per max range, however, in reality with my driving 343 is max range at 100% charge but if you only charge to 90% it gets 310 miles….
I’ve noticed that whilst the range is never an issue per se you are acutely aware that if you run low depending on where you are you could be stuck or waiting a long time. You’d be reluctant to let range drop below 40 (detours and road closures could make it tense).
I can charge at home or work so it was definitely the right move, however, I wouldn’t recommend an EV to someone if they couldn’t…. Realistically it would be a real ball ache.
I did select the Tesla largely on range and infrastructure…. As it turns out it’s quite a nice drive and way better than I anticipated (I quite enjoy it!) although I have a race car I compete in for the weekends and test days so that cures the itch for ICE
Until infrastructure is better, range will remain a key part of the EV buying considerations.
I recently changed from a 520d to a model 3…. I do approx 20,000 miles a year and the Tesla quotes 396 per max range, however, in reality with my driving 343 is max range at 100% charge but if you only charge to 90% it gets 310 miles….
I’ve noticed that whilst the range is never an issue per se you are acutely aware that if you run low depending on where you are you could be stuck or waiting a long time. You’d be reluctant to let range drop below 40 (detours and road closures could make it tense).
I can charge at home or work so it was definitely the right move, however, I wouldn’t recommend an EV to someone if they couldn’t…. Realistically it would be a real ball ache.
I did select the Tesla largely on range and infrastructure…. As it turns out it’s quite a nice drive and way better than I anticipated (I quite enjoy it!) although I have a race car I compete in for the weekends and test days so that cures the itch for ICE
Until infrastructure is better, range will remain a key part of the EV buying considerations.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff