Electric cars… what they really mean for you

[GetCarter]

On iPlayer now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0fzls18/wh...

On TV tonight. BBC 8 pm.

I fancy that Aston!

Doubtless people here will have some views. I'm saying nothing.

Okay... just one thing - I'm currently very much liking 640 ft lb of torque!

Edited by GetCarter on Tuesday 25th July 12:31

[TheDeuce]

Hmm...

Before I watch this can you confirm it's not just a perfectly balanced bit of BBC fluff that makes points for both sides of the debate but then fails to draw any form of conclusion? That would be quite annoying..

My new EV only has 586 ib/ft torque


Although if I had that sort of torque and power in a family sized ICE car I'm sure it would be costing A LOT more in terms of fuel per mile to actually use!

[John87]

TheDeuce said:

Although if I had that sort of torque and power in a family sized ICE car I'm sure it would be costing A LOT more in terms of fuel per mile to actually use!

This is a point I make to people all the time. I have a Polestar 2 with around 470bhp and 500+lb/ft yet they compare to a small engine diesel in terms of range and running costs. Surely they should be comparing to similar powered cars of that size such as an RS4 or the non competition M3. Fuel for me costs a tiny fraction of what it would on those per mile.

Also no one is driving those 1000 miles without a break while towing a caravan

[GetCarter]

TheDeuce said:

Hmm...

Before I watch this can you confirm it's not just a perfectly balanced bit of BBC fluff that makes points for both sides of the debate but then fails to draw any form of conclusion?

It's no spoiler to say that most of what we all know is covered (though with some nice modified cars). Including that fact that (what's left) of the UK car industry is fked if HM Gov doesn't pull its finger out.

[NIgt3]

For me they mean, Souless, heavy and a bit boring.

[Nomme de Plum]

NIgt3 said:

For me they mean, Souless, heavy and a bit boring.

Really.

Have you seen the weight of a BMW 4 series. Anywhere between 1600-2000kg Kerb weight.

Tesla Model 3 1,726 to 1,847 kg

BMW i3 1300kg

In what way boring?

https://mcmurtry.com

[NIgt3]

Noise, characterless, they all pretty much put their power down in the same way. You can get into a 400bhp ICE car with 6 cylinders then a 400bhp ICE car with 8 cylinders and they sound and feel very different.

[Nomme de Plum]

NIgt3 said:

Noise, characterless, they all pretty much put their power down in the same way. You can get into a 400bhp ICE car with 6 cylinders then a 400bhp ICE car with 8 cylinders and they sound and feel very different.

Sorry to disappoint you but all of that can be replicated in an EV to the point you would not be able to tell the difference.

Additionally you will find than many new ICE performance cars have synthesised sounds.

What gives an ICE it's characteristics is their variability of benefits versus shortcomings.

I've owned an S1 Elan, Peugeot 205 Gti, S1 Exige with 380bhp, A few TVRs including a Cerbera 4.5, 9114S and the pleasure of driving a 458 Ferrari for a few days and a list of normal day to day stuff so I've got a pretty good handle of what ICE cars offer.

Even though EVs are in their infancy they are for day to day motoring just better. Sports car wise they will come when the normal car buyer market is provided for.

The Taycan is a great car to drive even though it's a bit lumpy.

[M.F.D]

Yay another ICE v EV thread.

Not even clicking the link, they bore me that much. But that's just me personally.

I'll take the one that goes suck, squeeze, bang, blow.

[Nomme de Plum]

M.F.D said:

Yay another ICE v EV thread.

Not even clicking the link, they bore me that much. But that's just me personally.

I'll take the one that goes suck, squeeze, bang, blow.

Why bother to post then? Very odd.

[Evil.soup]

I am coming around to the idea of an EV, but only really as a commuter car. I think they would be rather a nice place to be during stop start rush hour traffic, quiet, smooth, pretty luxurious in most cases.

They make good transport in my mind, just not necessarily interesting drivers cars. Wouldn't want to try to thread a Polestar 2 down a country lane at pace and I agree with the above with regard to a lack of character.

Yes, EV's are very good at faking these things, but they sit in the same box as alcohol free lager, fake sugar and dinosaur bones at the museum, just not as good as the original.

I am sure there will one day be good EV sports cars, but they don't exist yet and I would imagine, they will cost an arm and a leg!

I was quite excited at the prospect of the new MG convertible, until I saw it and heard it at Goodwood, or should I say, didn't hear it. I would also imagine you wouldn't feel it either as it goes by on full chat. A car is more than just noise, they are so much more tactile than that. The MG left me disappointed, not because it didn't look good or didn't seem to drive well, but because it was missing the combustion engine.

I am of course a neanderthal, the next couple of generations will lap up the EV and the sporty EV will be what youngsters long for, not knowing what went before.

I look at people today that ride horses as a bit nuts, I can't see the point, they are rubbish transport, they smell and are pretty uncomfortable and temperamental.

I am sure in 20 years time young people will look at me driving an old Subaru and think the same as I do of horse riders...

Edited by Evil.soup on Tuesday 25th July 15:03

[kambites]

Evil.soup said:

Wouldn't want to try to thread a Polestar 2 down a country lane at pace and I agree with the above with regard to a lack of character.

I wouldn't particularly want to try to tread any of it's ICE competition down a country lane either, to be honest. Even the BMW M3, despite being deeply impressive its own way, is hardly something you'd want to throw down a narrow B-road.

I can't see myself ever being without a small ICE sports car for fun, in fact I'll probably keep my Elise until I can't climb in and out of it, but EVs are just better for everything else we do.

[kambites]

Evil.soup said:

I look at people today that ride horses as a bit nuts, I can't see the point, they are rubbish transport, they smell and are pretty uncomfortable and temperamental.

You could certainly apply all of those points to classic cars.

[stumpage]

So what do Electric Cars mean to me....a huge saving in BIK tax so I can spend more money on a V8 toy!

[Evil.soup]

kambites said:

Evil.soup said:

Wouldn't want to try to thread a Polestar 2 down a country lane at pace and I agree with the above with regard to a lack of character.

I wouldn't particularly want to try to tread any of it's ICE competition down a country lane either, to be honest. Even the BMW M3, despite being deeply impressive its own way, is hardly something you'd want to throw down a narrow B-road.

I can't see myself ever being without a small ICE sports car for fun, in fact I'll probably keep my Elise until I can't climb in and out of it, but EVs are just better for everything else we do.

No, I agree with you, I don't think any of the big power large saloon ICE cars make great B-road cars. I have driven the VXR8 with enthusiasm and on a motorway it felt immense, but motorway driving doesn't really inspire me. On a short B-road it felt too big and scary. I was lucky enough to have access to an S2 Elise 10 years ago as a friend owned one and we would swap between the Elise and Impreza on runs through the Beacons. Great car!

The Impreza is about as big as you would want to get down a B-road, it also feels light, nimble and small, even though it is a saloon.

[TikTak]

I'm not against by any means but neither am I convinced this is 100% the way to go and I can definitely see both sides of the fence here. Will watch this. More knowledge at this point the better.

Should be an interesting few years.

Nomme de Plum said:

Even though EVs are in their infancy they are for day to day motoring just better.

/.../

The Taycan is a great car to drive even though it's a bit lumpy.

Let's not make a sweeping generalization because if they were all clearly just better we'd all have them by now.

Also good to hear that the best EV by some distance which is not affordable for 98% of the country is "lumpy" good signs haha.

[TheDeuce]

Evil.soup said:

I am coming around to the idea of an EV, but only really as a commuter car. I think they would be rather a nice place to be during stop start rush hour traffic, quiet, smooth, pretty luxurious in most cases.

They make good transport in my mind, just not necessarily interesting drivers cars. Wouldn't want to try to thread a Polestar 2 down a country lane at pace and I agree with the above with regard to a lack of character.

Yes, EV's are very good at faking these things, but they sit in the same box as alcohol free lager, fake sugar and dinosaur bones at the museum, just not as good as the original.

I am sure there will one day be good EV sports cars, but they don't exist yet and I would imagine, they will cost an arm and a leg!

I was quite excited at the prospect of the new MG convertible, until I saw it and heard it at Goodwood, or should I say, didn't hear it. I would also imagine you wouldn't feel it either as it goes by on full chat. A car is more than just noise, they are so much more tactile than that. The MG left me disappointed, not because it didn't look good or didn't seem to drive well, but because it was missing the combustion engine.

I am of course a neanderthal, the next couple of generations will lap up the EV and the sporty EV will be what youngsters long for, not knowing what went before.

I look at people today that ride horses as a bit nuts, I can't see the point, they are rubbish transport, they smell and are pretty uncomfortable and temperamental.

I am sure in 20 years time young people will look at me driving an old Subaru and think the same as I do of horse riders...

Edited by Evil.soup on Tuesday 25th July 15:03

I see the logic, but actually... You'll probably end up with a powerful EV at some point yourself and learn to enjoy the car and it's power in a slightly different way to what you're used to.

I say you'll probably end up with one because you obviously appreciate why they're great all round cars/transport - but you have a modified and remapped WRX so I'm guessing when the day comes that you buy an EV, you'll probably be inclined to find one that has some fun power in addition to being a great daily car. It's not as if it costs very much more on the used market to buy a fast one and it costs virtually nothing extra in terms of running costs no matter how much you use the power - so most people that like powerful cars will, I expect, down the line end up with a powerful EV. Even if they don't ultimately love it as much as they loved the old ICE it replaces.

As and when that time comes, you might actually realise EV's are enjoyable but in slightly different ways to an ICE car.. Take the poster above's point about threading an EV down a country road: I can accept that in the smaller, lighter scooby, there is more joy to be had from placing the car perfectly and working with the mechanical power delivery and grip to get into and out of each corner as fast as possible. Let's say that's a 9/10 in terms of joy factor.

Something like a Jag iPace EV has 400hp and about double the torque of the Scooby, it's also instant in terms of power delivery. It's heavier so it won't place on the road quite so accurately (although they are surprisingly dynamic) and the EV powertrain is less involved - but it will actually get down most such roads faster overall, because of the insane launch it will make out of each corner. Let's say that all things considered it's a 7/10 joy factor all the speed and more is still there, but it's less involving for the driver, which I accept knocks the score back.

There's a big 'but' though. The powerful EV can take you down the same fun road every day of the week and in total will likely cost you less than one balls out blast down that road would in the scooby. So a thing I have learned is that whilst I miss some important aspects of performance ICE cars, I can get more overall fun and use out of a performance EV. That's a tricky one to weigh up, but now I'm used to instant power on whim with virtually no impact on my wallet, I would personally find it very hard to go back.

[John87]

I agree with the above. I used to have an Impreza which was much more nimble of course but a full tank of Vpower would get me barely more than 120 miles so wasn't practical or affordable to use as anything other than a fun car. My Polestar is quicker point to point despite its weight and surprisingly is actually very planted with the uprated ohlins dampers. It allows me to have close to that same fun while commuting and costs absolutely nothing due to free workplace charging.

I can't see myself going back to ICE for anything other than an ultra focused lightweight second car because the EV does most things just as good and many better.

I also don't need to clean as many oil stains off the driveway

[Nomme de Plum]

TikTak said:

I'm not against by any means but neither am I convinced this is 100% the way to go and I can definitely see both sides of the fence here. Will watch this. More knowledge at this point the better.

Should be an interesting few years.

Nomme de Plum said:

Even though EVs are in their infancy they are for day to day motoring just better.

/.../

The Taycan is a great car to drive even though it's a bit lumpy.

Let's not make a sweeping generalization because if they were all clearly just better we'd all have them by now.

Also good to hear that the best EV by some distance which is not affordable for 98% of the country is "lumpy" good signs haha.

EVs are currently too expensive, even the less exotic ones.

I'm not sure why everyone should expect to be able to be an early adopter. It's not new. Mobile phones when first available were only for the very few. The same with the PC or even the original ICE cars were the preserve of the rich.

However from 2030 a good range of affordable new and used cars need to be available so fortunately we have plenty of time. there are 33M cars in the UK and new car sales are circa 1.5M a year it doesn't take complicated maths to realise this will be a long journey even after 2030/2035.

The Taycan for all it's weight handles amazingly and leaves many so called sports cars a distant spec in the rear view mirror.

I'm reasonably confident that battery power densities will increase dramatically over the next decade or so and so the weight will come down. People will also accept they do not need the range we currently take for granted as the vast majority of journeys are short. The two car family may have a long range one and nippy small short range EV.

[DoctorX]

That guy was electrifying a Testarossa. Sacrilege!