Why do people compare BEV to ICE quoting "20 year life"?

[Taz1111]

As title. Who is keeping cars for 20 years?

Take an engine and gearbox that will never go wrong - 1.9 PD engine, manual gearbox. Car weighs around 1.4 tonne . Then you've got wheel bearings, driveshafts, brakes, suspension to keep on top of - most don't bother and scrap their cars well before the 20 years.

So then an electric car, putting the drivetrain aside (although, remembering electric cars lose range as they get older), you've still got to keep on top of the bits that *will* wear out, regardless of how the car is powered. A BEV is heavier than equivalent ICE car, that's a fact, so suspension components will wear out faster.

I'm sorry but, unless you know truly you're keeping your electric car until it's 20, how can you argue that your BEV is better for the environment overall?

My car is 16 and always needs a bit of maintenance, yet never drivetrain issues, so the closest I can compare to the arguments people have BEV.

What happens when the headunit in your electric car stops being supported, or the whole dashboard breaks, who is going to replace that?

I just think this whole "lifespan" of a car is stupid as a justification for going electric. If you care about the environment either a) don't drive or b) get a car that is actually 20 years old - I guarantee you'd hate it

[mat205125]

Not sure who are these people quoting "20 year life", but I'd be worried if an EV needed to remain in service for two decades for it to have a lower gross environmental impact to an ICE, from a cradle to grave (inc responsible recycling) perspective.

[Fusion777]

Taz1111 said:

Take an engine and gearbox that will never go wrong - 1.9 PD engine, manual gearbox

I think "will never go wrong" is pushing it- it's a very reliable engine, but nothing is infallible, and only a very small percentage of cars on the road have the 1.9 PD engine.

Fewer components = generally less to go wrong, and EVs are simpler, whichever way you cut it.

[Taz1111]

mat205125 said:

Not sure who are these people quoting "20 year life", but I'd be worried if an EV needed to remain in service for two decades for it to have a lower gross environmental impact to an ICE, from a cradle to grave (inc responsible recycling) perspective.

I don't recall where I saw it, but even a lower age, say 10 years. Who is keeping their electric car for 10 years, given at most they do 200 miles from new? That'll be down to 100 miles in 10 years.

[Fusion777]

Taz1111 said:

I don't recall where I saw it, but even a lower age, say 10 years. Who is keeping their electric car for 10 years, given at most they do 200 miles from new? That'll be down to 100 miles in 10 years.

Real world battery degradation is nowhere near that level.

[Merry]

Taz1111 said:

I don't recall where I saw it, but even a lower age, say 10 years. Who is keeping their electric car for 10 years, given at most they do 200 miles from new? That'll be down to 100 miles in 10 years.

No it won't. I'm not aware of anyone that would scrap a car of that age either. As someone said on another thread a second hand EV will just displace another vehicle at the end of its life. As it always has done with any vehicle.

Do we really need another one of these threads? This has been done to death.

[Taz1111]

Merry said:

No it won't. I'm not aware of anyone that would scrap a car of that age either. As someone said on another thread a second hand EV will just displace another vehicle at the end of its life. As it always has done with any vehicle.

Do we really need another one of these threads? This has been done to death.

Get it merged if you want or just ignore it.

I want to know from someone who owns BEV are they really keeping their cars as long as they quote

[Taz1111]

Fusion777 said:

I think "will never go wrong" is pushing it- it's a very reliable engine, but nothing is infallible, and only a very small percentage of cars on the road have the 1.9 PD engine.

Fewer components = generally less to go wrong, and EVs are simpler, whichever way you cut it.

My argument is, if you're really looking for; a) low cost motoring b) good fuel economy c) environmentally considerate , then ruling out a trusty, looked after diesel which is nearing 20 years old should also be considered when you look at a brand new EV

[autumnsum]

Taz1111 said:

I don't recall where I saw it, but even a lower age, say 10 years. Who is keeping their electric car for 10 years, given at most they do 200 miles from new? That'll be down to 100 miles in 10 years.

Here we go, it's EV myth bingo again.

This is either trolling or some weird mental illness, like why do people keep coming to these threads, posting myths as facts? I don't believe for one second they believe them, either. It's well weird. Tin hat territory.

Taz1111 there are UK Teslas with 150k+ miles on them for sale on autotrader right now which are almost 10 years old. Oddly they are still £20k plus, why would that be if, like you say, they only have a 100 mile range?

[Fusion777]

Taz1111 said:

My argument is, if you're really looking for; a) low cost motoring b) good fuel economy c) environmentally considerate , then ruling out a trusty, looked after diesel which is nearing 20 years old should also be considered when you look at a brand new EV

I don't think people considering a new EV will want to entertain a 20 year old diesel, and that's coming from someone with a diesel that's getting on for 13 years old.

[Merry]

Taz1111 said:

Get it merged if you want or just ignore it.

I want to know from someone who owns BEV are they really keeping their cars as long as they quote

Yes I own one, yes I plan on keeping it until its about 10 years old, maybe longer.

But when I've done with it I'll probably sell it rather than scrap it. Because that would be stupid.

[mat205125]

Fusion777 said:

Taz1111 said:

My argument is, if you're really looking for; a) low cost motoring b) good fuel economy c) environmentally considerate , then ruling out a trusty, looked after diesel which is nearing 20 years old should also be considered when you look at a brand new EV

I don't think people considering a new EV will want to entertain a 20 year old diesel, and that's coming from someone with a diesel that's getting on for 13 years old.

Exactly.

People with very small commutes or usages might choose an EV as the running costs are so low, however shelling out £500/mth (for example) to lease/finance it, comes from a different psychological pot in their minds.

Don't bother trying to convince them otherwise, and just continue to drive decade old V8s for the same expenditure

[Baldchap]

Fusion777 said:

Taz1111 said:

I don't recall where I saw it, but even a lower age, say 10 years. Who is keeping their electric car for 10 years, given at most they do 200 miles from new? That'll be down to 100 miles in 10 years.

Real world battery degradation is nowhere near that level.

There is at least one million mile Model S out there and many millions (probably now billions) of miles of real world degradation data. It's massively less than the naysayers would have you believe. I say this as the owner of exclusively ICE vehicles with zero skin in the game whatsoever. It just irritates me when people propagate bullst instead of taking 30 seconds to check that what they heard on Facebook from another idiot is true.

Annnnnd breathe.

But seriously folks, if you aren't fact checking before you share what you read on Social Media and the like, you're actually part of a very serious problem.

[Sporky]

Taz1111 said:

I want to know from someone who owns BEV are they really keeping their cars as long as they quote

Does it matter how long the first owner keeps it?

What matters is lifespan before scrapping.

[SWoll]

Taz1111 said:

I don't recall where I saw it, but even a lower age, say 10 years. Who is keeping their electric car for 10 years, given at most they do 200 miles from new? That'll be down to 100 miles in 10 years.

Here we go again. What is it with posters having a sudden epiphany around EV's who then decide to they must share it without doing any research into the subject whatsoever?

50% degradation in 10 years regardless of mileage and charging?
EV's at most do 200 miles from new?


(and that's in winter, at motorway speeds)

Honestly..

Edited by SWoll on Thursday 8th June 14:11

[kurokawa]

Taz1111 said:

My argument is, if you're really looking for; a) low cost motoring b) good fuel economy c) environmentally considerate , then ruling out a trusty, looked after diesel which is nearing 20 years old should also be considered when you look at a brand new EV

A person looking for a low cost, good fuel economy, environmentally considerate car will very unlikely be looking for a brand new car.

[Filibuster]

My old man still has his first car he bought in the early '70s. A Volvo 123 GT with half a million km on it.
Besides that, he always has a more modern Volvo estate. The current one being a P1 V70R, which he has for over 15 years now. Currently @300+ km. Even if he has costly maintenance, he insist of keeping it. The 850R he had before was written off, because someone drove into it. Otherwise he would still be having that one.

And my mother still has a Smart convertible she bought brand new in 2000. After a full engine rebuild about 12 years ago, she has the turbo replaced just recently.

[brman]

SWoll said:

Here we go again. What is it with posters having a sudden epiphany around EV's who then decide to they must share it without doing any research into the subject whatsoever?

50% degradation in 10 years regardless of mileage and charging?
EV's at most do 200 miles from new?

Honestly..

Because there is a lot of crap spoken about it (from both sides!) and sometimes people want to have a reasonable discussion to get a better view on the subject. It has got to be better than the responses that are just dismissive and insulting and don't add anything of substance.
Do you not agree?

My view is as follows:
- EVs are not green, they are very bad for the environment. In some situations they are less bad than IC cars, but not all.
- EVs are likely to have reduced lifespans compared to older IC models. How much reduced, I am not sure. Plus I think modern IC cars are also likely to see a reduced lifespan compared to older IC cars.
- What will cause this reduced lifespan is also not just about batteries/motors. But more likely to be due to complexity of electronic system, the ability of back street garages to fix them and the government/car makers push to keep comsumers consuming. Plus of course the general publics desire for shiney new things.....
So the EV vs IC thing is not black and white.
But that is just my opinion. Short of a crystal ball or a time machine it is pretty hard to prove either way

In summary though, I think Tez's facts might be skewed but the gist of his concern has some validity.

[PetrolHeadInRecovery]

Sporky said:

Taz1111 said:

I want to know from someone who owns BEV are they really keeping their cars as long as they quote

Does it matter how long the first owner keeps it?

What matters is lifespan before scrapping.

Indeed! The US statistics that I found indicate an average age of 12.5 years for cars and SUVs.

So ICE cars on the road today might end up having 20 year life. There is a question mark re. replacement/reconditioned batteries, but I'd imagine in most cases lower running and maintenance costs would more than offset the one-off cost of a battery.

[nickfrog]

Sporky said:

Taz1111 said:

I want to know from someone who owns BEV are they really keeping their cars as long as they quote

Does it matter how long the first owner keeps it?

What matters is lifespan before scrapping.

I can't believe the stuff you have to type on PH. Stating the bleeding obvious shouldn't be needed, but it clearly is.