Rowan Atkinson Electric Car Article

[themule]

Interesting article by Rowan Atkinson in The Guardian today about electric cars https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun...

[Cockaigne]

I prefer hydrogen, i just don't get the ethics of using kids to mine rare materials, and also the fact Tesla is owned by the person who is clearly morally bankrupt. The Autopilot which doesn't work as its name dictates, putting people lives at risk for an Ego.

I think like a lot of topics the shouty people who represent a very small percentage of the population seem to lead the arguments, which are not a real representatives of the population as a whole.

[Dingu]

Cockaigne said:

I prefer hydrogen, i just don't get the ethics of using kids to mine rare materials, and also the fact Tesla is owned by the person who is clearly morally bankrupt. The Autopilot which doesn't work as its name dictates, putting people lives at risk for an Ego.

I think like a lot of topics the shouty people who represent a very small percentage of the population seem to lead the arguments, which are not a real representatives of the population as a whole.

You need a lot of stuff mined to achieve Hydrogen, it’s not a magic bullet by any stretch. I’m not sure the Oil industry is exactly ethical if we are suddenly now interested in that.

The rest isn’t an EV point but general cars and Musk.

[Pan Pan Pan]

Dingu said:

Cockaigne said:

I prefer hydrogen, i just don't get the ethics of using kids to mine rare materials, and also the fact Tesla is owned by the person who is clearly morally bankrupt. The Autopilot which doesn't work as its name dictates, putting people lives at risk for an Ego.

I think like a lot of topics the shouty people who represent a very small percentage of the population seem to lead the arguments, which are not a real representatives of the population as a whole.

You need a lot of stuff mined to achieve Hydrogen, it’s not a magic bullet by any stretch. I’m not sure the Oil industry is exactly ethical if we are suddenly now interested in that.

The rest isn’t an EV point but general cars and Musk.

Hydrogen from Nuclear power would not require nearly as much mining.

[Dingu]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Dingu said:

Cockaigne said:

I prefer hydrogen, i just don't get the ethics of using kids to mine rare materials, and also the fact Tesla is owned by the person who is clearly morally bankrupt. The Autopilot which doesn't work as its name dictates, putting people lives at risk for an Ego.

I think like a lot of topics the shouty people who represent a very small percentage of the population seem to lead the arguments, which are not a real representatives of the population as a whole.

You need a lot of stuff mined to achieve Hydrogen, it’s not a magic bullet by any stretch. I’m not sure the Oil industry is exactly ethical if we are suddenly now interested in that.

The rest isn’t an EV point but general cars and Musk.

Hydrogen from Nuclear power would not require nearly as much mining.

Agreed, but then we tie ourselves in knots over what to do with the Nuclear waste and so on.

[Olibol]

The article is massively biased and misleading. The Volvo research in more detail here, for example: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/21/unpacking-the...

No mention of the energy and resources required to make hydrogen either. Complete FUD. I expected more from him for some reason

[themule]

I don't think the whole 'kids mining lithium' just applies to electric cars - anything with rechargeable batteries, cheap clothes, some foods.

[Cockaigne]

Dingu said:

You need a lot of stuff mined to achieve Hydrogen, it’s not a magic bullet by any stretch. I’m not sure the Oil industry is exactly ethical if we are suddenly now interested in that.

The rest isn’t an EV point but general cars and Musk.

Does it need 40k child miners. Don't think so.

Lithium refining takes 65% of Chilean waters, the ethics in EV cars is very low.

The point of the article is, EV car owners are either ignorant of the facts or not very clever, when clearly EV cars are not a better environment option.

Edited by Cockaigne on Saturday 3rd June 10:43

[Olibol]

Cockaigne said:

Dingu said:

You need a lot of stuff mined to achieve Hydrogen, it’s not a magic bullet by any stretch. I’m not sure the Oil industry is exactly ethical if we are suddenly now interested in that.

The rest isn’t an EV point but general cars and Musk.

Does it need 40k child miners. Don't think so.

Lithium refining takes 65% of Chilean waters, the ethics in EV cars is very low.

The point of the article are EV cars are either ignorant of the facts or not very clever when EV cars aren't really a better environment option.

The current advancement in batteries will use salt rather than lithium. Currently going into mass production. We’ll soon be slamming EVs for the ethics of salt mining instead.

[Macron]

themule said:

Interesting article by Rowan Atkinson in The Guardian today about electric cars https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun...

Comedian writes about manufacturing from an apparent position of authority because he owns one.

What a load of ste.

Moreover, why is this not just in NPE, or even a thread in its own right given the fking massive number of EV and EV basking threads we already have?

[Cockaigne]

Olibol said:

The current advancement in batteries will use salt rather than lithium. Currently going into mass production. We’ll soon be slamming EVs for the ethics of salt mining instead.

So besides the children being a stop gap, they all lose their jobs. hmm o.k

Imagine if the mindset was not to make cars a consumable product in the first place...?

[Dingu]

Cockaigne said:

So besides the children being a stop gap, they all lose their jobs. hmm o.k

Imagine if the mindset was not to make cars a consumable product in the first place...?

So you care about child mining or child employment? Feels a bit like you are throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks rather than having a well considered point of view now.

Carbon emissions need to be reduced and the fact is ICE is worse than EV. So if there are alternative batteries then they are pretty categorically an improvement whether you like it or not.

Hydrogen has its own set of challenges, not least production and storage. Ultimately it’s manufacturers who have pursued EV over hydrogen in the main, and they are much much cleverer than you or I.

If you want to support Hydrogen though you can buy a car which runs on it.

[Fastlane]

I like Rowan - we were taught maths by the same teacher, we were both brought up in the North East, in 2005 I spotted him in his F1 on the Oxford ring road and his son stared at my Clio V6 as I drove by, he is a very intelligent and funny man (although I never saw the appeal of Mr Bean), but like many petrolheads of a certain age, he is being sucked into the anti-EV rhetoric being spouted by those with an interest in maintaining the status quo. As soon as he starts talking about hydrogen and synthtic fuels for use in cars, you know he is out of touch. Chris Harris also comes to mind.

Edited by Fastlane on Saturday 3rd June 10:55

[GT9]

Cockaigne said:

I prefer hydrogen, i just don't get the ethics of using kids to mine rare materials, and also the fact Tesla is owned by the person who is clearly morally bankrupt. The Autopilot which doesn't work as its name dictates, putting people lives at risk for an Ego.

I think like a lot of topics the shouty people who represent a very small percentage of the population seem to lead the arguments, which are not a real representatives of the population as a whole.

How much do you actually know about why a hydrogen passenger car economy would involve?

Get into the detail and you will find that any challenges with batteries fairly quickly pale into insignificance compared to those that tens of millions of hydrogen-powered cars will create.

If you have the time, this thread covers most of it: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[Olibol]

Cockaigne said:

Olibol said:

The current advancement in batteries will use salt rather than lithium. Currently going into mass production. We’ll soon be slamming EVs for the ethics of salt mining instead.

So besides the children being a stop gap, they all lose their jobs. hmm o.k

Imagine if the mindset was not to make cars a consumable product in the first place...?

Well, you’re on to something then. But they have been so for over 100 years.

It’s worth looking a bit closer at the mining stats and facts too

[Cockaigne]

Dingu said:

So you care about child mining or child employment? Feels a bit like you are throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks rather than having a well considered point of view now.

Carbon emissions need to be reduced and the fact is ICE is worse than EV. So if there are alternative batteries then they are pretty categorically an improvement whether you like it or not.

Hydrogen has its own set of challenges, not least production and storage. Ultimately it’s manufacturers who have pursued EV over hydrogen in the main, and they are much much cleverer than you or I.

If you want to support Hydrogen though you can buy a car which runs on it.

Germany 75% of electricity made by coal and gas.

UK 35% of fossil fuels used in May.

I think if the real argument is c02, focus on the biggest producing countries like China (who made the top selling EV in the UK), reduce the level of consumable product consumption and invest in a 360 approach to reducing emissions?

[Cockaigne]

Olibol said:

It’s worth looking a bit closer at the mining stats and facts too

What did the UN report of child miners get wrong then?

[GT9]

Cockaigne said:

Germany 75% of electricity made by coal and gas.

UK 35% of fossil fuels used in May.

I think if the real argument is c02, focus on the biggest producing countries like China (who made the top selling EV in the UK), reduce the level of consumable product consumption and invest in a 360 approach to reducing emissions?

Remind me what the source of the energy is to produce green hydrogen and the round trip efficiency it can achieve when used in passenger car applications?

[D4rez]

Cockaigne said:

Germany 75% of electricity made by coal and gas.

UK 35% of fossil fuels used in May.

I think if the real argument is c02, focus on the biggest producing countries like China (who made the top selling EV in the UK), reduce the level of consumable product consumption and invest in a 360 approach to reducing emissions?

- China makes stuff for the West. West needs to consume stuff more sustainably without crashing the global economy

- Electricity needs to be made more renewably

- ICE needs to become EV because EVs create less emissions (regardless of battery production location and CO2 intensity of power generation)

3 separate points, all of the above need to happen as fast as possible. It's not one or the other unless you're a bit basic

[Olibol]

Cockaigne said:

Olibol said:

It’s worth looking a bit closer at the mining stats and facts too

What did the UN report of child miners get wrong then?

I’m not defending mining, but most motors will be cobalt free within the next few years (not so fossil fuel production), and most lithium is mined in Australia. Most reputable ev manufacturers have traceable supply chains, and only use lithium from certified sources. People seem to like using dubious ‘facts’ to undermine EVs that they’re less willing to apply to, for instance the oil industry. I wonder why that is?