PHEVs 5 Times More Polluting in Real world
Discussion
"“Recent evidence suggests PHEVs [plug-in hybrid electric vehicles] are 3-5 times more polluting in the real world than in test drives. This adjustment raises baseline emissions. "
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Who knew? Give huge tax breaks and people will take the tax cut but still use the convenience of the ICE engine.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/1...
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Who knew? Give huge tax breaks and people will take the tax cut but still use the convenience of the ICE engine.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/1...
Article says:
The UK’s net zero targets will be missed because of a planned “road-building spree” by the Department for Transport, campaigners have said.
Officials had to edit the department’s “transport decarbonisation plan” to add 26 megatonnes of carbon emissions because of an oversight regarding polluting hybrid vehicles, and projections for an increase in van traffic."
The article also states:
"The government recently blocked the release of the carbon emission figures behind its transport decarbonisation plan. It blocked academics from seeing the figures, which include data on how much car use would have to be reduced in order to reach net zero commitments."
I do not see any documentary evidence in the article as to whether the hybrids are petrol, diesel or both or any comparison with the ICE equivalent.
So in general the article is not really much use.
Of course it could be slanted to persuade people into full EV sooner.
The UK’s net zero targets will be missed because of a planned “road-building spree” by the Department for Transport, campaigners have said.
Officials had to edit the department’s “transport decarbonisation plan” to add 26 megatonnes of carbon emissions because of an oversight regarding polluting hybrid vehicles, and projections for an increase in van traffic."
The article also states:
"The government recently blocked the release of the carbon emission figures behind its transport decarbonisation plan. It blocked academics from seeing the figures, which include data on how much car use would have to be reduced in order to reach net zero commitments."
I do not see any documentary evidence in the article as to whether the hybrids are petrol, diesel or both or any comparison with the ICE equivalent.
So in general the article is not really much use.
Of course it could be slanted to persuade people into full EV sooner.
irc said:
"“Recent evidence suggests PHEVs [plug-in hybrid electric vehicles] are 3-5 times more polluting in the real world than in test drives. This adjustment raises baseline emissions. "
.
Who knew? Give huge tax breaks and people will take the tax cut but still use the convenience of the ICE engine.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/1...
This is why most markets are accelerating the shift to EV and why the new Euro standards include a provision that you have to run electrically in cities and have to charge the battery or the car won't start..
Who knew? Give huge tax breaks and people will take the tax cut but still use the convenience of the ICE engine.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/1...
irc said:
"“Recent evidence suggests PHEVs [plug-in hybrid electric vehicles] are 3-5 times more polluting in the real world than in test drives. This adjustment raises baseline emissions. "
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This is presumably related to the MPG figures you see on autotrader for PHEVs?.......
BMW i3 480mpg.
I think we all knew this was nonsense and illustrates how stupid committees of bureaucrats can be.
What we want to know is how far will it go on battery and what mpg does it do on petrol?
Did anyone think it would get to Scotland from Exeter on 1 gallon of petrol?
No, but it might do all your mundane trips on electric, then get you to about Gloucester?
Do we actually know what sorts of hybrid will be allowed to be sold in the UK post 2030?
Is it still vague stuff about 'significant range with zero tailpipe emissions'?
Tbf I think mpg figures for PHEVs are hugely misleading and misunderstood. Fuel/battery economy is massively dependant on usage.
All local journeys for us are now near enough on battery power only, so mpg wise its basically infinite.
When going further out the 330e can still manage around the 100mpg+ mark.
Once you go outside of the battery range for long enough it becomes a normal hybrid vehicle but just not as efficient. So 50-60mpg is around the normal mark.
I've seen lots of complaints from private hire drivers saying they have been conned as their PHEVs don't get anywhere near the expected fuel economy. Personally I think it's a lack of education on how they are supposed to be used.
All local journeys for us are now near enough on battery power only, so mpg wise its basically infinite.
When going further out the 330e can still manage around the 100mpg+ mark.
Once you go outside of the battery range for long enough it becomes a normal hybrid vehicle but just not as efficient. So 50-60mpg is around the normal mark.
I've seen lots of complaints from private hire drivers saying they have been conned as their PHEVs don't get anywhere near the expected fuel economy. Personally I think it's a lack of education on how they are supposed to be used.
It was always going to cause problems dreaming up the fantasy land mpg figures quoted for a PHEV.
What really irritates me is the implication that the electric that's required to achieve these ridiculous figures is completely discounted. It still has to be paid for (in most cases).
What should have happened, was a pure petrol mpg figure and a separate pure EV miles / kWh figure.
Given I understand the compromise, I find my PHEV (X1) the ideal solution as I use it almost 100% EV for commuting, then longer journeys are ICE. Incidentally, driving like Miss Daisy I can get over 50mpg on a motorway run when starting with zero charge which I don't think is too bad for a decent sized 'petrol' car.
What really irritates me is the implication that the electric that's required to achieve these ridiculous figures is completely discounted. It still has to be paid for (in most cases).
What should have happened, was a pure petrol mpg figure and a separate pure EV miles / kWh figure.
Given I understand the compromise, I find my PHEV (X1) the ideal solution as I use it almost 100% EV for commuting, then longer journeys are ICE. Incidentally, driving like Miss Daisy I can get over 50mpg on a motorway run when starting with zero charge which I don't think is too bad for a decent sized 'petrol' car.
PHEV doesnt hit advertised MPG shocker.... full report at 10....
I know I am being a little stupid here, but it illustrates a few parts to this story. There is little doubt that if you hit the use case for a PHEV, they are great. If you dont though, it some cases they will be worse than an equivalent ICE model. But we have seen this before - manufacturer comes up with an economical model, a government tries to standardize the testing and hey presto we end up in a weird world of reported, real-world and extreme cases.
I still remember a discussion here on PH about someone who was convinced that their Clio diesel was getting 65MPG all day long, well above the advertised figures. Maybe, but highly unlikely. Same with the claims that the BMW X5 45e here in the US - sold with a 'combined MPGe' of 50 something, but checking the EPA site you see 50 / 20 MPGe. Pretty big discrepancy and I can absolutely believe some customers will charge and get great MPG while others will see shocking MPG.
While consumers are blissfully unaware how this reporting and calculations are done, this will be the issue. If, and only if, you can hit the scenarios that the manufacturer designed the PHEV for, great - otherwise they arent going to be great. Personally, a PHEV would fit in for my use case, but cant afford to drop $70k on a new car quite at the moment.
I know I am being a little stupid here, but it illustrates a few parts to this story. There is little doubt that if you hit the use case for a PHEV, they are great. If you dont though, it some cases they will be worse than an equivalent ICE model. But we have seen this before - manufacturer comes up with an economical model, a government tries to standardize the testing and hey presto we end up in a weird world of reported, real-world and extreme cases.
I still remember a discussion here on PH about someone who was convinced that their Clio diesel was getting 65MPG all day long, well above the advertised figures. Maybe, but highly unlikely. Same with the claims that the BMW X5 45e here in the US - sold with a 'combined MPGe' of 50 something, but checking the EPA site you see 50 / 20 MPGe. Pretty big discrepancy and I can absolutely believe some customers will charge and get great MPG while others will see shocking MPG.
While consumers are blissfully unaware how this reporting and calculations are done, this will be the issue. If, and only if, you can hit the scenarios that the manufacturer designed the PHEV for, great - otherwise they arent going to be great. Personally, a PHEV would fit in for my use case, but cant afford to drop $70k on a new car quite at the moment.
My last two diesel estates have averaged over 45mpg, all in, solid 9 years of everyday use.
The trick is, I don't do stupid short journeys or willingly beat myself insane stuck in town traffic.
Something like 40mpg around B roads, 50 mpg motorway?
Even includes a bit of towing.
If you did just motorway miles within the speed limit, and no crawling it should be possible to get 55 or 60 mpg with 2010 technology?
Bloater SUVs are pushing a lot of air out of the way though.
The A in CdA matters?
The trick is, I don't do stupid short journeys or willingly beat myself insane stuck in town traffic.
Something like 40mpg around B roads, 50 mpg motorway?
Even includes a bit of towing.
If you did just motorway miles within the speed limit, and no crawling it should be possible to get 55 or 60 mpg with 2010 technology?
Bloater SUVs are pushing a lot of air out of the way though.
The A in CdA matters?
PHEV on sensible mileage charging at home should easily exceed 100mpg. That said the electricity on some tarriffs is rarely any cheaper and company car drivers can be better covered with HMRC fuel rates rather than electricity. So it’s no wonder the “polluting” option is used. It’s just easier/cheaper for a lot of people.
Best thing about them is they don’t smell or sound of diesel. That’s enough of a win.
Best thing about them is they don’t smell or sound of diesel. That’s enough of a win.
Mpg figures for phev is just dumb to start with.
Phev itself is a dumb choice for most people that buy one - on the assumption it's a gentler and less scary route towards full fat BEV.
If you can charge at home for the most part, just get a proper EV. Of you can't or can't afford one, run a diesel.
There's zero pressure to take a completely pointless halfway step towards electrification right now. I strongly suspect most people that choose them have failed to do their sums properly one way or another. Sometimes it's the assumption they make a good company car because of reduced BIK, but it's not reduced enough to make it better value than running a private car and charging the company mileage. Others decide they can do most journeys on electric only, which may be true but falters each time you exceed that range and you could have a slightly more expensive BEV that will do virtually all journeys on cheap electric power. And, frankly, a far better car!
I'm sure someone will come along now to point out that for them phev is the optimum choice - let me anticipate that by saying 'well done, good choice'. But I believe the vast majority of adopters simply haven't thought it through properly and been realistic about total cost/value of the car they chose.
The sooner hybrid is generally killed off/de-popularised the better - because so long as it's pushed, people will assume it's a safe and sensible moderate step forwards. It so often isn't.
Phev itself is a dumb choice for most people that buy one - on the assumption it's a gentler and less scary route towards full fat BEV.
If you can charge at home for the most part, just get a proper EV. Of you can't or can't afford one, run a diesel.
There's zero pressure to take a completely pointless halfway step towards electrification right now. I strongly suspect most people that choose them have failed to do their sums properly one way or another. Sometimes it's the assumption they make a good company car because of reduced BIK, but it's not reduced enough to make it better value than running a private car and charging the company mileage. Others decide they can do most journeys on electric only, which may be true but falters each time you exceed that range and you could have a slightly more expensive BEV that will do virtually all journeys on cheap electric power. And, frankly, a far better car!
I'm sure someone will come along now to point out that for them phev is the optimum choice - let me anticipate that by saying 'well done, good choice'. But I believe the vast majority of adopters simply haven't thought it through properly and been realistic about total cost/value of the car they chose.
The sooner hybrid is generally killed off/de-popularised the better - because so long as it's pushed, people will assume it's a safe and sensible moderate step forwards. It so often isn't.
JonnyVTEC said:
PHEV on sensible mileage charging at home should easily exceed 100mpg.
Thats the key part - if you can charge at home (or work) then a PHEV works well. If you can do your daily trips less than the range of it AND charge up at home / work, its a no brainer. It isnt the most efficient thing in the world and a BEV will always be more efficient, but for people doing less than 10 miles to work each way and then an drop into the supermarket every 3 days or so, its a win-win situation. We had an i3 and it worked great for us - lots of daily trips of 4-10 miles. We dont do that any more and we are either doing 6-10 miles per day or 100 miles in a day a trip of 200+ miles every month. PHEV works great for that use case. Of course, a BEV would also work, but maybe I dont want a Tesla....
I think the article just illustrates what we all knew anyway.
1. On a long journey, the ICE is doing most of the work and having a penalty of dragging a heavy battery and ancillaries.
2. On short trips, it's possible to charge the battery first (it's not free) and then drag an ICE penalty.
3. If the trip is of the right mix, and you don't include the cost of the charging - the MPG is amazing.
If I get my 3.0 Subaru est over 27mpg - it's a result!
1. On a long journey, the ICE is doing most of the work and having a penalty of dragging a heavy battery and ancillaries.
2. On short trips, it's possible to charge the battery first (it's not free) and then drag an ICE penalty.
3. If the trip is of the right mix, and you don't include the cost of the charging - the MPG is amazing.
If I get my 3.0 Subaru est over 27mpg - it's a result!
We ended up with a PHEV for a few of days as the I-Pace was with a dealer over a weekend so it was interesting to see how it plugged in (sorry) to daily life. There was nothing wrong with the drivetrain, all worked smoothly, but it’s more like a petrol car with a hybrid function than an EV with a petrol engine. It was quite keen to fire up the petrol engine and keep it running for a bit. Despite using it more than the EV range every day, it never fully used up the battery. I think it had a battery around 15-20kWh or some such.
If you want a petrol car that is much more efficient then all good. It was certainly not slow with all the gubbins chipping in and much better than a diesel from an experience point of view. I didn’t really obsess about the efficiency but seemed to use maybe a third as much fuel as a similar petrol car would have done. I suspect if one did the usual “important” full lifecycle CO2 calculations then it would beat an EV in the real world.
The main drawback with it, maybe the only drawback, was having to charge it every day in order to get the efficiency. Even after just a couple of days this got quite irritating. I didn’t have to charge it per se but there was an element of curiosity to see what the PHEV lifestyle was like. As an EV user there was also a niggling annoyance that it was running on petrol when I personally thought it was unnecessary. But if you come at it from the petrol car angle and you don’t mind charging a car daily then sure why not.
If you want a petrol car that is much more efficient then all good. It was certainly not slow with all the gubbins chipping in and much better than a diesel from an experience point of view. I didn’t really obsess about the efficiency but seemed to use maybe a third as much fuel as a similar petrol car would have done. I suspect if one did the usual “important” full lifecycle CO2 calculations then it would beat an EV in the real world.
The main drawback with it, maybe the only drawback, was having to charge it every day in order to get the efficiency. Even after just a couple of days this got quite irritating. I didn’t have to charge it per se but there was an element of curiosity to see what the PHEV lifestyle was like. As an EV user there was also a niggling annoyance that it was running on petrol when I personally thought it was unnecessary. But if you come at it from the petrol car angle and you don’t mind charging a car daily then sure why not.
It has to be said it’s a basic disadvantage of ev and phev is that the cars weight is the same with the battery full or empty. So an uncharged phev is worse than an ice. Annexample would be the bmw 330i can’t match at 320d in many situations. The phev concept need people to be dedicated to plugging it in.
For a company car user, it depends how you get reimbursed for business mileage. I have a Kuga PHEV and currently I can reclaim 23p/mile for business use, based on the HMRC AFR.
Given the above, it makes sense to get the maximum MPG that I can. I therefore charge overnight on an EV tariff and recharge at work too. Claimed economy over 33,000 miles is 114 mpg.
Some companies provide a fuel card and then the user pays the company back for private mileage. In that scenario, the economy of the vehicle is immaterial from an economics perspective, but clearly relevant environmentally.
Given the above, it makes sense to get the maximum MPG that I can. I therefore charge overnight on an EV tariff and recharge at work too. Claimed economy over 33,000 miles is 114 mpg.
Some companies provide a fuel card and then the user pays the company back for private mileage. In that scenario, the economy of the vehicle is immaterial from an economics perspective, but clearly relevant environmentally.
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