EVs as White Goods
Discussion
We recently decided that our next car should be an EV, principally for environmental reasons. That may or may not be a rational decision, but was important for family reasons...
Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance. Range of 180/200 miles is fine, can charge on the drive and it isn't the only car.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
Gets plugged in overnight, and battery refilled, usually between 10 and 20kw depending on previous days usage, typically 50 to 80 miles. 12p/kw on Octopus Go tariff. Or 3.5p/mile.
So, capital costs high, running costs low. Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actuallly happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance. Range of 180/200 miles is fine, can charge on the drive and it isn't the only car.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
Gets plugged in overnight, and battery refilled, usually between 10 and 20kw depending on previous days usage, typically 50 to 80 miles. 12p/kw on Octopus Go tariff. Or 3.5p/mile.
So, capital costs high, running costs low. Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actuallly happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
If your definition of white goods is that it has to be electrical then maybe yes but my interpretation is that white good are simply a domestic tool for a certain application.
A car is no different and the vast majority have no particular appeal other than as a form of personal transport.
Evs will develop but currently manufactures will concentrate on building mass market vehicles. Expect in a year or two some fun car EVs to hit the market.
The relative cost will reduce as well.
A car is no different and the vast majority have no particular appeal other than as a form of personal transport.
Evs will develop but currently manufactures will concentrate on building mass market vehicles. Expect in a year or two some fun car EVs to hit the market.
The relative cost will reduce as well.
I have agreed to buy a used BMW I3s to replace the old but lovely Subaru Legacy specB.
We do fewer miles now as I'm old. The intention is to have something with low running costs - usually the car is just sitting on the drive, so it will garb power from the solar panels.
I'm sure I'm going to enjoy the I3, but probably more as a technical toy than as a driving machine, and yes I agree; most ordinary EVs are white goods. Their principal function is transport not driving pleasure, and it's the weight that is numbing that pleasure.
I'm a fan of EVs, they make more sense to me than an ICE car. But however brutal the power, however flash the gizmos, I don't see any EV providing more driving fun than something lighter with a power delivery that needs managing, and a handling balance that rewards finesse. Not until they get much lighter.
We do fewer miles now as I'm old. The intention is to have something with low running costs - usually the car is just sitting on the drive, so it will garb power from the solar panels.
I'm sure I'm going to enjoy the I3, but probably more as a technical toy than as a driving machine, and yes I agree; most ordinary EVs are white goods. Their principal function is transport not driving pleasure, and it's the weight that is numbing that pleasure.
I'm a fan of EVs, they make more sense to me than an ICE car. But however brutal the power, however flash the gizmos, I don't see any EV providing more driving fun than something lighter with a power delivery that needs managing, and a handling balance that rewards finesse. Not until they get much lighter.
eldar said:
We recently decided that our next car should be an EV, principally for environmental reasons. That may or may not be a rational decision, but was important for family reasons...
Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance. Range of 180/200 miles is fine, can charge on the drive and it isn't the only car.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
Gets plugged in overnight, and battery refilled, usually between 10 and 20kw depending on previous days usage, typically 50 to 80 miles. 12p/kw on Octopus Go tariff. Or 3.5p/mile.
So, capital costs high, running costs low. Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actuallly happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
Wouldn't a Citroen C4 powered by petrol also be capable and boring and be a white good? Why is the electric version any different?Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance. Range of 180/200 miles is fine, can charge on the drive and it isn't the only car.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
Gets plugged in overnight, and battery refilled, usually between 10 and 20kw depending on previous days usage, typically 50 to 80 miles. 12p/kw on Octopus Go tariff. Or 3.5p/mile.
So, capital costs high, running costs low. Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actuallly happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
eldar said:
We recently decided that our next car should be an EV, principally for environmental reasons. That may or may not be a rational decision, but was important for family reasons...
Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
.Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actually happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
It’s the same for any mid-range family car - EV or ICE.Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
.Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actually happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
Paul Drawmer said:
I have agreed to buy a used BMW I3s to replace the old but lovely Subaru Legacy specB.
We do fewer miles now as I'm old. The intention is to have something with low running costs - usually the car is just sitting on the drive, so it will garb power from the solar panels.
I'm sure I'm going to enjoy the I3, but probably more as a technical toy than as a driving machine, and yes I agree; most ordinary EVs are white goods. Their principal function is transport not driving pleasure, and it's the weight that is numbing that pleasure.
I'm a fan of EVs, they make more sense to me than an ICE car. But however brutal the power, however flash the gizmos, I don't see any EV providing more driving fun than something lighter with a power delivery that needs managing, and a handling balance that rewards finesse. Not until they get much lighter.
I think the i3S is going to surprise you. Brilliant fun from a driving perspective IME and when we move to a city EV/touring ICE setup later this year it's top of our list.We do fewer miles now as I'm old. The intention is to have something with low running costs - usually the car is just sitting on the drive, so it will garb power from the solar panels.
I'm sure I'm going to enjoy the I3, but probably more as a technical toy than as a driving machine, and yes I agree; most ordinary EVs are white goods. Their principal function is transport not driving pleasure, and it's the weight that is numbing that pleasure.
I'm a fan of EVs, they make more sense to me than an ICE car. But however brutal the power, however flash the gizmos, I don't see any EV providing more driving fun than something lighter with a power delivery that needs managing, and a handling balance that rewards finesse. Not until they get much lighter.
raspy said:
eldar said:
We recently decided that our next car should be an EV, principally for environmental reasons. That may or may not be a rational decision, but was important for family reasons...
Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance. Range of 180/200 miles is fine, can charge on the drive and it isn't the only car.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
Gets plugged in overnight, and battery refilled, usually between 10 and 20kw depending on previous days usage, typically 50 to 80 miles. 12p/kw on Octopus Go tariff. Or 3.5p/mile.
So, capital costs high, running costs low. Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actuallly happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
Wouldn't a Citroen C4 powered by petrol also be capable and boring and be a white good? Why is the electric version any different?Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance. Range of 180/200 miles is fine, can charge on the drive and it isn't the only car.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
Gets plugged in overnight, and battery refilled, usually between 10 and 20kw depending on previous days usage, typically 50 to 80 miles. 12p/kw on Octopus Go tariff. Or 3.5p/mile.
So, capital costs high, running costs low. Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actuallly happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
Sporky said:
raspy said:
Wouldn't a Citroen C4 powered by petrol also be capable and boring and be a white good? Why is the electric version any different?
It's just a tired trope at this point, like calling EVs "milk floats".Honestly for me, the low running costs are just a bonus (averaging under 3ppm on the Born with Ovo Anytime @10p/kWh surprising amounts of low demand during a day, not just overnight), I really dislike driving clunky, hesitant old ICE tech now unless it is purely for fun where you can forgive it all for a bit of V8 noise
Plenty of cars are 'white goods' just bought for the purpose of getting from A to B.
Their owners are oblivious to what type of engine it has, whether it is FWD, RWD or 4WD, what mpg it does, how many km per kWh etc.
Some prefer certain colours and that's it
I had a Renault Zoë the other day as a courtesy car. My first electric powered drive.
I quite enjoyed it, and after I had got over how quick off the mark it was, I totally got into the regen thing and tried to make electricity
But £30k
for a mini car!
My only current beef with electric cars is how expensive they are and that in order to entice drivers, the manufacturers seem to have made all their EVs high end models.
Only Dacia seem to have gone for the simple yet electric idea but even the Spring starts at over £20k.
I bought my Duster brand new 2 years ago for £10.5k and it's a decent enough car.
We need far more EVs to be at the low end of the price scale in order to encourage more interest.
Their owners are oblivious to what type of engine it has, whether it is FWD, RWD or 4WD, what mpg it does, how many km per kWh etc.
Some prefer certain colours and that's it
I had a Renault Zoë the other day as a courtesy car. My first electric powered drive.
I quite enjoyed it, and after I had got over how quick off the mark it was, I totally got into the regen thing and tried to make electricity
But £30k
for a mini car! My only current beef with electric cars is how expensive they are and that in order to entice drivers, the manufacturers seem to have made all their EVs high end models.
Only Dacia seem to have gone for the simple yet electric idea but even the Spring starts at over £20k.
I bought my Duster brand new 2 years ago for £10.5k and it's a decent enough car.
We need far more EVs to be at the low end of the price scale in order to encourage more interest.
S600BSB said:
smn159 said:
Well quite. I'm left wondering how much more exciting and involving the the OP thinks that a diesel C4 would be
Indeed. Makes you smile doesn't it!Sure if I had compared the egolf to a gti I’d agree the white goods analogy, but in reality vs a 1.4 se it was pretty much the same.
The petrol c4s are just as much white goods as the electric ones, only the electric one is probably a bit nicer to drive
1.I don't want a high end EV. I'm not going to be spending 8 hours behind the wheel in it.
2.I don't need it to race off the line or match some stupid top speed number. I've got a brilliant V8 six speed RWD ICE car for that.
3.I don't want the EV to be always connected. I don't want to pay a subscription for any feature and I don't want the manufacturer to be able to change, downgrade, or remove anything on the EV that I own. I want a boring "thing" not a perpetual boring monthly subscription.
4. I want it to be cheap and durable enough for at least 8-10 years of boring, small trips.
I've not found any EV that meets these basic needs for my "white goods" car. I had a Micra that I used for this dull, short trip commuting purpose and it worked brilliantly. If I find myself in that situation again, I'll go for small, cheap ICE again (at least for now).
2.I don't need it to race off the line or match some stupid top speed number. I've got a brilliant V8 six speed RWD ICE car for that.
3.I don't want the EV to be always connected. I don't want to pay a subscription for any feature and I don't want the manufacturer to be able to change, downgrade, or remove anything on the EV that I own. I want a boring "thing" not a perpetual boring monthly subscription.
4. I want it to be cheap and durable enough for at least 8-10 years of boring, small trips.
I've not found any EV that meets these basic needs for my "white goods" car. I had a Micra that I used for this dull, short trip commuting purpose and it worked brilliantly. If I find myself in that situation again, I'll go for small, cheap ICE again (at least for now).
SDK said:
eldar said:
We recently decided that our next car should be an EV, principally for environmental reasons. That may or may not be a rational decision, but was important for family reasons...
Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
.Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actually happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
It’s the same for any mid-range family car - EV or ICE.Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
.Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actually happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
raspy said:
eldar said:
We recently decided that our next car should be an EV, principally for environmental reasons. That may or may not be a rational decision, but was important for family reasons...
Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance. Range of 180/200 miles is fine, can charge on the drive and it isn't the only car.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
Gets plugged in overnight, and battery refilled, usually between 10 and 20kw depending on previous days usage, typically 50 to 80 miles. 12p/kw on Octopus Go tariff. Or 3.5p/mile.
So, capital costs high, running costs low. Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actuallly happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
Wouldn't a Citroen C4 powered by petrol also be capable and boring and be a white good? Why is the electric version any different?Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance. Range of 180/200 miles is fine, can charge on the drive and it isn't the only car.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
Gets plugged in overnight, and battery refilled, usually between 10 and 20kw depending on previous days usage, typically 50 to 80 miles. 12p/kw on Octopus Go tariff. Or 3.5p/mile.
So, capital costs high, running costs low. Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actuallly happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
P. ONeill said:
I stopped reading after the ‘environmental reasons’ nonsense. EVs are anything but environmentally friendly.
Surely the move to EV is that they are less environmentally damaging than the ICE it replaces.Furthermore it will assist in the removal of very delitereoes pollutants and the health consequences these cause from our cities.
BlackTank said:
1.I don't want a high end EV. I'm not going to be spending 8 hours behind the wheel in it.
2.I don't need it to race off the line or match some stupid top speed number. I've got a brilliant V8 six speed RWD ICE car for that.
3.I don't want the EV to be always connected. I don't want to pay a subscription for any feature and I don't want the manufacturer to be able to change, downgrade, or remove anything on the EV that I own. I want a boring "thing" not a perpetual boring monthly subscription.
4. I want it to be cheap and durable enough for at least 8-10 years of boring, small trips.
I've not found any EV that meets these basic needs for my "white goods" car. I had a Micra that I used for this dull, short trip commuting purpose and it worked brilliantly. If I find myself in that situation again, I'll go for small, cheap ICE again (at least for now).
Do you buy new or used?2.I don't need it to race off the line or match some stupid top speed number. I've got a brilliant V8 six speed RWD ICE car for that.
3.I don't want the EV to be always connected. I don't want to pay a subscription for any feature and I don't want the manufacturer to be able to change, downgrade, or remove anything on the EV that I own. I want a boring "thing" not a perpetual boring monthly subscription.
4. I want it to be cheap and durable enough for at least 8-10 years of boring, small trips.
I've not found any EV that meets these basic needs for my "white goods" car. I had a Micra that I used for this dull, short trip commuting purpose and it worked brilliantly. If I find myself in that situation again, I'll go for small, cheap ICE again (at least for now).
I'm reasonably confident that mid 2030s, ICE and EVs will reach price parity.
It is quite possible to pick up an used EV for £4K but no-one yet around £1500
eldar said:
We recently decided that our next car should be an EV, principally for environmental reasons. That may or may not be a rational decision, but was important for family reasons...
Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance. Range of 180/200 miles is fine, can charge on the drive and it isn't the only car.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
Gets plugged in overnight, and battery refilled, usually between 10 and 20kw depending on previous days usage, typically 50 to 80 miles. 12p/kw on Octopus Go tariff. Or 3.5p/mile.
So, capital costs high, running costs low. Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actuallly happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
Yep, job done. I guess your enjoyment will come from the inner warmth that comes from doing a good thing for the world around you and hopefully hassle free low cost motoring. Anyway, after some head scratching, the best vehicle in terms of comfort, range, performance, cost, availability and size was a Citroen E-C4. Its role is family car, no requirement for other than adequate performance. Range of 180/200 miles is fine, can charge on the drive and it isn't the only car.
To my mind, the definition of an automotive washing machine. Does what is asked of it without fuss or excitement, or any involvement.
Gets plugged in overnight, and battery refilled, usually between 10 and 20kw depending on previous days usage, typically 50 to 80 miles. 12p/kw on Octopus Go tariff. Or 3.5p/mile.
So, capital costs high, running costs low. Car capable but boring.
If this the low carbon future, assuming ice ban actuallly happens, then fine, there are plenty of cars around to suit all tastes.
Nomme de Plum said:
Surely the move to EV is that they are less environmentally damaging than the ICE it replaces.
Furthermore it will assist in the removal of very delitereoes pollutants and the health consequences these cause from our cities.
EVs obviously don’t have any emissions at the point of use but the power still has to be generated somewhere. Then you have the environmental impact of the battery manufacturing process. It’s a complete con imo. Governments forced people into diesels, now they are telling the same people how harmful these same cars are and we should all switch to EVs. Rinse and repeat.Furthermore it will assist in the removal of very delitereoes pollutants and the health consequences these cause from our cities.
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