EU allow cars running on e-fuels to be sold after 2035...
Discussion
EU to allow cars running on e-fuels to be sold after 2035 - UK will likely follow.
Regit Article
Surely this is allowing ICE to be allowed to be sold after 2035 without admitting they are going to allow ICE cars to be sold after 2035?
Considering any car can run on efuel and vice versa will it just be s sticker saying eFuel that gets round this?
The reality of EV is hitting pretty hard now it seems as we get closer and closer to the deadline and realising....well.....I won't go there.
Anyway, interesting turn of events.
Regit Article
Surely this is allowing ICE to be allowed to be sold after 2035 without admitting they are going to allow ICE cars to be sold after 2035?
Considering any car can run on efuel and vice versa will it just be s sticker saying eFuel that gets round this?
The reality of EV is hitting pretty hard now it seems as we get closer and closer to the deadline and realising....well.....I won't go there.
Anyway, interesting turn of events.
The UK may follow, it also may well not - Europe has a particular problem with mass EV adoption, their grid and energy security is actually not as good a we have in the UK, it's one of the few areas we're quite a long way ahead in fact. Particularly with renewable energy generation allowing us to be far less dependant on shipped in gas.
But anyway, whilst allowing some people to soldier on using E-fuels will make life easier on the continent, as said above, E-fuels are slow and costly to produce so it's not as if the car manufacturers will be able to maintain much of a range of ICE cars for sale after 2035, because their user/buyer base is limited by e-fuel production.
This sounds like an extension, but really it's not. It will delay having to switch for a small % of motorists when buying a new car, but the masses buying, and virtually all of each manufacturers range of cars for sale, will need to electric by that point.
All existing ICE cars can/could run on e-fuels of course, but they were never going to be banned in the first place, nor was petrol/diesel. It's the buying of new ICE cars that will (virtually) stop due to post 2035 laws coming into force.
But anyway, whilst allowing some people to soldier on using E-fuels will make life easier on the continent, as said above, E-fuels are slow and costly to produce so it's not as if the car manufacturers will be able to maintain much of a range of ICE cars for sale after 2035, because their user/buyer base is limited by e-fuel production.
This sounds like an extension, but really it's not. It will delay having to switch for a small % of motorists when buying a new car, but the masses buying, and virtually all of each manufacturers range of cars for sale, will need to electric by that point.
All existing ICE cars can/could run on e-fuels of course, but they were never going to be banned in the first place, nor was petrol/diesel. It's the buying of new ICE cars that will (virtually) stop due to post 2035 laws coming into force.
deutsche.diagnostics said:
Glad that is cleared up. 
Care to expand?
Sure the U.K. government position isn’t changing, they already had/have a separate pathway to “zero tailpipe” which is stricter than the EUs which was zero CO2. They have indicated no will to change this, in part because of clean air targets which e-fuels don’t help.Care to expand?
The key part of the article is the spokespersons quote - “zero at the tailpipe”. The U.K. regs are written as any tailpipe pollutants which includes NOx, PN, CO2 etc. e-fuels produce all of these at the same level as petrol so are included in the U.K. ban and that has been communicated in all the working groups with industry
Edited by D4rez on Tuesday 28th March 20:11
Edited by D4rez on Tuesday 28th March 20:12
deutsche.diagnostics said:
A lot can change in 13 years.
What if we suddenly get a government in that thinks that mining for the batteries is worse than the "pollutants" ICE cars put out?
It was less than 13 years ago they were still pushing diesel.
I guess it depends where the real money is.
An entire government and all its advisers, most of whom are civil servants who have been well versed on environmental matters, are not suddenly going to decide that the mining aspect per battery can ever come close to what is offset in terms of pollution over the lifespan of the resultant car. It's just so far reality that such a suggestion would be indefensible and easily torn to shreds.What if we suddenly get a government in that thinks that mining for the batteries is worse than the "pollutants" ICE cars put out?
It was less than 13 years ago they were still pushing diesel.
I guess it depends where the real money is.
In any case, who could win a general election that would want to soften the deadline for banning ICE? The only party that can realistically oust the Conservatives are Labour, and they're already pushing to bring the ban date further forwards to 2030... It's one of the few things that the major parties agree on, the need to meet our air quality targets - and beyond the individual whim of any future government, as a country we're signed up to those targets and would need a damn good reason to delay.
In the EU they have no real option but to look to ways to soften their ambitious targets/dates, because they can no longer continue to buy in relatively cheap Russian gas in huge quantities, for obvious reasons.. And without it they're simply not equipped for another hundred million++ EV's on the roads, attached to their grids. We actually are nearly ready for full electrification and certainly can be as fast as people will actually buy the cars.
DMZ said:
It all sounds very interesting but thankfully I’m in the freedom loving EU so looking forward to having a choice
I agree with loving and missing being part of the EU... But you don't have any more of a choice due to this really. Your choice come 2035 was going to be that you could only buy an EV if you wanted a new car. All this has done is given you an additional option to buy a new ICE car past that date providing you commit to only fuel it with expensive and relatively thin on the ground e-fuel. So an extra option perhaps, but probably not a one that is going to be overall as convenient or affordable as just going for an EV - as and when you do happen to want to buy a car registered post 2035.You will still have the choice to buy/continue to run any pre 2035 registered ICE car and run it on normal fuel, the same as us in the UK.
Full EV is a fallacy…
We need a major breakthrough in energy production and energy storage.
As it stands the air quality will improve because less people will be able to drive because they will not be able to afford personal transport.
EVs are still too expensive to buy. A lot can happen in 10 years let’s watch this space. My next car will be an hybrid… I need the miles and hybrid will work better for my needs.
We need a major breakthrough in energy production and energy storage.
As it stands the air quality will improve because less people will be able to drive because they will not be able to afford personal transport.
EVs are still too expensive to buy. A lot can happen in 10 years let’s watch this space. My next car will be an hybrid… I need the miles and hybrid will work better for my needs.
CrgT16 said:
Full EV is a fallacy…
We need a major breakthrough in energy production and energy storage.
As it stands the air quality will improve because less people will be able to drive because they will not be able to afford personal transport.
EVs are still too expensive to buy. A lot can happen in 10 years let’s watch this space. My next car will be an hybrid… I need the miles and hybrid will work better for my needs.
I have a hybrid and it's not great although £20 RFL is pretty good. It is overly complicated though. We need a major breakthrough in energy production and energy storage.
As it stands the air quality will improve because less people will be able to drive because they will not be able to afford personal transport.
EVs are still too expensive to buy. A lot can happen in 10 years let’s watch this space. My next car will be an hybrid… I need the miles and hybrid will work better for my needs.
Yes EVs are expensive now but the ICE ban will not come in until 2030 by which time EVs will be on a par with ICEs price wise and battery mileage will also be close to ICEs.
TheDeuce said:
An entire government and all its advisers, most of whom are civil servants who have been well versed on environmental matters, are not suddenly going to decide that the mining aspect per battery can ever come close to what is offset in terms of pollution over the lifespan of the resultant car. It's just so far reality that such a suggestion would be indefensible and easily torn to shreds.
In any case, who could win a general election that would want to soften the deadline for banning ICE? The only party that can realistically oust the Conservatives are Labour, and they're already pushing to bring the ban date further forwards to 2030... It's one of the few things that the major parties agree on, the need to meet our air quality targets - and beyond the individual whim of any future government, as a country we're signed up to those targets and would need a damn good reason to delay.
In the EU they have no real option but to look to ways to soften their ambitious targets/dates, because they can no longer continue to buy in relatively cheap Russian gas in huge quantities, for obvious reasons.. And without it they're simply not equipped for another hundred million++ EV's on the roads, attached to their grids. We actually are nearly ready for full electrification and certainly can be as fast as people will actually buy the cars.
I was simply using that as an example. In any case, who could win a general election that would want to soften the deadline for banning ICE? The only party that can realistically oust the Conservatives are Labour, and they're already pushing to bring the ban date further forwards to 2030... It's one of the few things that the major parties agree on, the need to meet our air quality targets - and beyond the individual whim of any future government, as a country we're signed up to those targets and would need a damn good reason to delay.
In the EU they have no real option but to look to ways to soften their ambitious targets/dates, because they can no longer continue to buy in relatively cheap Russian gas in huge quantities, for obvious reasons.. And without it they're simply not equipped for another hundred million++ EV's on the roads, attached to their grids. We actually are nearly ready for full electrification and certainly can be as fast as people will actually buy the cars.
It could be anything.
But there has been lots of talk recently about how green these things are, overall. And I have gone passed the point of thinking I'm doing any good driving an EV.
3 years ago I felt very differently. I now think EV is doing more harm overall. In the next 13 years there might be far more backlash.
No one knows?
deutsche.diagnostics said:
I was simply using that as an example.
It could be anything.
But there has been lots of talk recently about how green these things are, overall. And I have gone passed the point of thinking I'm doing any good driving an EV.
3 years ago I felt very differently. I now think EV is doing more harm overall. In the next 13 years there might be far more backlash.
No one knows?
In 13 years the electorate will be even more progressive than today. People who have grown up with EVs existing will be of an age to vote. It could be anything.
But there has been lots of talk recently about how green these things are, overall. And I have gone passed the point of thinking I'm doing any good driving an EV.
3 years ago I felt very differently. I now think EV is doing more harm overall. In the next 13 years there might be far more backlash.
No one knows?
As for doing more overall harm? Lol.
deutsche.diagnostics said:
A lot can change in 13 years.
What if we suddenly get a government in that thinks that mining for the batteries is worse than the "pollutants" ICE cars put out?
It was less than 13 years ago they were still pushing diesel.
I guess it depends where the real money is.
your view and standing on this...What if we suddenly get a government in that thinks that mining for the batteries is worse than the "pollutants" ICE cars put out?
It was less than 13 years ago they were still pushing diesel.
I guess it depends where the real money is.
All I can say is dont take up playing poker, you wont do well...
A lot can change.... It wont... The government is pushing ahead with decarbonisation, were looking at central heating, of puling those gas systems out of houses. same with gas cookers... they are going...
The who thing is about reduction of carbon and its happening.
efuel is not going to be in use for the masses. It may be used in very limited situations but it wont be for the masses on the M25.
The hydrocarbon era is drawing to a close.
You may be right about change.... and how that changes the goal posts...
we had the move from filament lamps to low wattage under the banner of reducing power.... we bought in
We had the move from tube TV to flatscreen.... I dont know if there are any homes in the UK that stil have tubed TV's... we boought in
Now were all going to be moving to EV's some not buying in but the government hand will shove you to toe the government line...
Is it a push for green, or is a push towards reducing giving money to oil companies. to reduce the money going to the middle east.
Money always sits around change and disruption and this is a huge disruptor this.
CrgT16 said:
Full EV is a fallacy…
We need a major breakthrough in energy production and energy storage.
As it stands the air quality will improve because less people will be able to drive because they will not be able to afford personal transport.
EVs are still too expensive to buy. A lot can happen in 10 years let’s watch this space. My next car will be an hybrid… I need the miles and hybrid will work better for my needs.
EV's are the solution to energy storage - at least a very, very big part of it - potentially more a part of storing energy than the actual energy they need to use themselves in fact.We need a major breakthrough in energy production and energy storage.
As it stands the air quality will improve because less people will be able to drive because they will not be able to afford personal transport.
EVs are still too expensive to buy. A lot can happen in 10 years let’s watch this space. My next car will be an hybrid… I need the miles and hybrid will work better for my needs.
EV cost... that's heading downward and as ICE production numbers decrease, their cost will more upwards. So I disagree that cost is a barrier but totally agree that for various factors, private transport is definitely getting more expensive, which is an inconvenient thing for many but I'm not sure is a bad thing overall. There are an awful lot of homes with three cars, and at least two of those cars are on the drive most of the time, there has to be ways people can cut back which are not unreasonable.
The energy production is a big one to solve, although we have the tools to solve it. In the UK solar and wind are set to increase significantly over the next decade and with a little extra nuclear, and millions of EV's to help balance the grid, we should be close to true energy independence - which is quite something. In the EU, things are not quite so rosy and their various member states have all invested in their own green initiatives (such as e-fuels) and there is a lot of pressure to incorporate those things into/alongside the ICE bans. Although still the question remains... just because the EU doesn't blanket ban ICE's and allows a minimal number to continue to be sold if run on 'green' fuel, who exactly will want to be in the business of continuing to make those ICE's for such a reduced market? It starts to feel like BMW/VW/Merc etc still pretty much have to shift their entire focus to EV's by 2035 because they sell globally, not just in the EU. So perhaps they'll all have one small and one full sized ICE car they'll keep selling, probably with a tiny engine, which will work fine for people that genuinely need more range than an EV can deliver. But it's not as if the current exciting and varied world of ICE evolution, development and choice will remain.
deutsche.diagnostics said:
TheDeuce said:
An entire government and all its advisers, most of whom are civil servants who have been well versed on environmental matters, are not suddenly going to decide that the mining aspect per battery can ever come close to what is offset in terms of pollution over the lifespan of the resultant car. It's just so far reality that such a suggestion would be indefensible and easily torn to shreds.
In any case, who could win a general election that would want to soften the deadline for banning ICE? The only party that can realistically oust the Conservatives are Labour, and they're already pushing to bring the ban date further forwards to 2030... It's one of the few things that the major parties agree on, the need to meet our air quality targets - and beyond the individual whim of any future government, as a country we're signed up to those targets and would need a damn good reason to delay.
In the EU they have no real option but to look to ways to soften their ambitious targets/dates, because they can no longer continue to buy in relatively cheap Russian gas in huge quantities, for obvious reasons.. And without it they're simply not equipped for another hundred million++ EV's on the roads, attached to their grids. We actually are nearly ready for full electrification and certainly can be as fast as people will actually buy the cars.
I was simply using that as an example. In any case, who could win a general election that would want to soften the deadline for banning ICE? The only party that can realistically oust the Conservatives are Labour, and they're already pushing to bring the ban date further forwards to 2030... It's one of the few things that the major parties agree on, the need to meet our air quality targets - and beyond the individual whim of any future government, as a country we're signed up to those targets and would need a damn good reason to delay.
In the EU they have no real option but to look to ways to soften their ambitious targets/dates, because they can no longer continue to buy in relatively cheap Russian gas in huge quantities, for obvious reasons.. And without it they're simply not equipped for another hundred million++ EV's on the roads, attached to their grids. We actually are nearly ready for full electrification and certainly can be as fast as people will actually buy the cars.
It could be anything.
But there has been lots of talk recently about how green these things are, overall. And I have gone passed the point of thinking I'm doing any good driving an EV.
3 years ago I felt very differently. I now think EV is doing more harm overall. In the next 13 years there might be far more backlash.
No one knows?
It's very upsetting to read about the conditions in rare earth material mines and the treatment of the workers, these things need to improve but boycotting the EV movement will simply cause more shortening of lives over time.
It's good to be aware of the true scale of the human and environmental cost to manufacture of an EV, but it's madness to think that cost holds a candle upto the same costs for manufacturing and running an ICE car for the same lifespan. There is no comparison at all.
Risonax said:
Will there be sufficient supply of electro fuels to support road transport, shipping and aviation:
https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/up...
If we heading more towards Scenario 3 (new cars are 80% EV, 20% e-fuel), then electricity demand is 71% than the present scenario of 100% EV sales by 2035. Scenario 3 also means 50% or so more land has to be used for energy generation, which presumably means less land for food production, housing etc. And a continued dependance on importing fuel (hydrogen) from unstable parts of the world (Saudi Arabia).
This thread/forum is really concerned with road cars, private transportation.https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/up...
If we heading more towards Scenario 3 (new cars are 80% EV, 20% e-fuel), then electricity demand is 71% than the present scenario of 100% EV sales by 2035. Scenario 3 also means 50% or so more land has to be used for energy generation, which presumably means less land for food production, housing etc. And a continued dependance on importing fuel (hydrogen) from unstable parts of the world (Saudi Arabia).
Shipping and aviation are different sectors so sit outside the current targets and impending ICE bans.
Road transport is less clearly defined, currently the production of new ICE units is expected to come in 2040 although as with cars, continuing to run the existing fleets will be allowed indefinitely - or realistically as long as the older trucks is practical. If once they're all old and kicking out a load of extra pollution it's still not really feasible to manufacture EV trucks, then I would imagine the rules could be re-jigged. Entire economies start to stall if goods transportation stalls.
This isn't really about trucks though, it's more forgivable for a truck that carries goods for hundreds of homes and supports endless jobs to be allowed to go about it's business than it is for a chap to drive to the supermarket on a Sunday in a diesel car, spewing out carcinogens on the way, so that he can buy a paper. The point is that people should be allowed personal transport, but they have to adapt and accept they will need to pay to ensure that transport is as clean as technology allows. So now we have EV, that is the personal target for the masses.
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