Government to install chargers in non profitable areas
Discussion
I know there has been much discussion and some doubt about who will pay for chargers in areas where they can't be justified commercially - well it turns out my very own town is to be part of a pilot scheme to do just that, with the government picking up the tab - this is a positive step and it's good to see government money being used to boost the infrastructure for residents. As has been pointed out endlessly, no one can 'make money' from chargers on residential streets if they're to be for everyone at every wealth level..
https://www.stamfordmercury.co.uk/news/new-electri...
Crucially if they're to be paid for by government and I presume passed to the local councils to maintain, it should in time open the door to being charged only your home electricity kwh rate for use - plus I imagine a small % extra to fund the maintenance and operation etc.
Thoughts...?
https://www.stamfordmercury.co.uk/news/new-electri...
Crucially if they're to be paid for by government and I presume passed to the local councils to maintain, it should in time open the door to being charged only your home electricity kwh rate for use - plus I imagine a small % extra to fund the maintenance and operation etc.
Thoughts...?
We keep hearing (and seeing) that provincial High Streets are on their knees. You'd think some enterprising councils would be installing cheap chargers to encourage EV owners to stop off and hope they spend some money while charging.
In my town the public chargers are on the edge of town in Tescos, McDonalds and the Drive Through Costa Coffees so they must think it is worth the installation costs.
You don't ever hear of the government proposing to fund chargers on rural A-roads as an encouragement to EV take-up either.
In my town the public chargers are on the edge of town in Tescos, McDonalds and the Drive Through Costa Coffees so they must think it is worth the installation costs.
You don't ever hear of the government proposing to fund chargers on rural A-roads as an encouragement to EV take-up either.
Truckosaurus said:
We keep hearing (and seeing) that provincial High Streets are on their knees. You'd think some enterprising councils would be installing cheap chargers to encourage EV owners to stop off and hope they spend some money while charging.
In my town the public chargers are on the edge of town in Tescos, McDonalds and the Drive Through Costa Coffees so they must think it is worth the installation costs.
You don't ever hear of the government proposing to fund chargers on rural A-roads as an encouragement to EV take-up either.
Stop being silly. That would be the logical thing to do. Our councillors barely know their elbow from their ass.In my town the public chargers are on the edge of town in Tescos, McDonalds and the Drive Through Costa Coffees so they must think it is worth the installation costs.
You don't ever hear of the government proposing to fund chargers on rural A-roads as an encouragement to EV take-up either.
I'm in East Staffordshire and Staffordshire as a whole is one of the worse areas in the country for public EV chargers. It doesn't make the cut for this funding though. Odd? Oxford is a fairly affluent city with good connections, yet it seems to be getting enormous investment in EV infrastructure.
silent ninja said:
Truckosaurus said:
We keep hearing (and seeing) that provincial High Streets are on their knees. You'd think some enterprising councils would be installing cheap chargers to encourage EV owners to stop off and hope they spend some money while charging.
In my town the public chargers are on the edge of town in Tescos, McDonalds and the Drive Through Costa Coffees so they must think it is worth the installation costs.
You don't ever hear of the government proposing to fund chargers on rural A-roads as an encouragement to EV take-up either.
Stop being silly. That would be the logical thing to do. Our councillors barely know their elbow from their ass.In my town the public chargers are on the edge of town in Tescos, McDonalds and the Drive Through Costa Coffees so they must think it is worth the installation costs.
You don't ever hear of the government proposing to fund chargers on rural A-roads as an encouragement to EV take-up either.
I'm in East Staffordshire and Staffordshire as a whole is one of the worse areas in the country for public EV chargers. It doesn't make the cut for this funding though. Odd? Oxford is a fairly affluent city with good connections, yet it seems to be getting enormous investment in EV infrastructure.
The town I live in, and the town the article I posted applies to - Stamford, has a relatively high wealth level, the vast majority of homes can install their own chargers, the town attracts a lot of tourists and already has a hugely successful high street - so for the government to pay for chargers here is a little surprising... But it's a pilot scheme so perhaps they're looking for places that don't really need the chargers right now, in case the scheme suffers issues, which it surely will as its a government scheme implemented by the local council.
But whatever the logic for selecting these pilot scheme locations, it is still good to see that there is an intention longer term for the state to pay for public chargers for residents that live in areas where fitting a home charger is generally not possible. It's good because such chargers will be needed in the future but they won't ever be profitable because people living on streets of terraced houses or high density flats generally can't afford to pay BP or whoever 90p per kwh for electricity - so they have to be provided as a public service and have the power sold at or close to normal retail domestic rates.
How this will all work is anyone's guess. In my mind it should be perfectly possible to provide an app that allows the user to register and book in charging slots, or use ad-hoc if the charger is vacant. The account on the app could pick-up your home electricity supplier rates and add the charging costs to your household bill at the same rate, the app could even be used to report and trigger a fine for anyone parked in the charger bay when not using the charger.
But in reality I expect it won't be that clever or well thought out for years, it'll just be some fairly cheap, very slow chargers dotted about the place and people not using them will perpetually park in them. You see - it does make sense to put them in places that don't actually need them
silent ninja said:
I'm in East Staffordshire and Staffordshire as a whole is one of the worse areas in the country for public EV chargers. It doesn't make the cut for this funding though. Odd? Oxford is a fairly affluent city with good connections, yet it seems to be getting enormous investment in EV infrastructure.
There is no demand for the public chargers.No really - just before you all pile in...
This was Stafford town centre today.
The two chargers (four bays) over in Sainsbury's were also empty.
I guess that people that can afford EVs generally have their own driveways and home charging (it might be different in cities).
I know it isn't going to be a popular view, but not really seeing a good reason why tax payers should fund public charging.
No ideas for a name said:
silent ninja said:
I'm in East Staffordshire and Staffordshire as a whole is one of the worse areas in the country for public EV chargers. It doesn't make the cut for this funding though. Odd? Oxford is a fairly affluent city with good connections, yet it seems to be getting enormous investment in EV infrastructure.
There is no demand for the public chargers.No really - just before you all pile in...
This was Stafford town centre today.
The two chargers (four bays) over in Sainsbury's were also empty.
I guess that people that can afford EVs generally have their own driveways and home charging (it might be different in cities).
I know it isn't going to be a popular view, but not really seeing a good reason why tax payers should fund public charging.
But this is more about the future, it's about making it possible and practical for people in high density housing areas to be able to run an EV in the longer term future when the only new and used cars that are affordable to both buy and run as a daily will be EV. That's a very long way off but these are just pilot schemes right now, and I think it's sensible they are begun 'today' so there is a workable plan in the future.
Should taxpayers money be used? Well it has been for lots of things to bring about a public improvement for the general good over the decades. A big part of the EV movement is not to do with planet warming, it's to do with the simple fact that those living in towns and cities for the last 100 years have basically lived an entire life breathing in carcinogenic fumes. We accept that today because cars are everywhere and they always have been.. But I suspect that in 40 years time a school child might be somewhat wide eyed to learn that in relatively recent history so many people, their own parents perhaps in fact, lived in a world where nobody gave any thought to the problem of living in a place that 24 hours a day had the exhausts of hundreds of fossil fuel engines just outside the houses - constantly. I've been in London on still weather Fridays when everyone gets in their cars and you can genuinely see the tint of fumes in the air. And it never freaks me out but when you really think about it... It's probably something that does need to be sorted out. It cannot possibly not be shortening millions of lives to some extent.
Watford are another anit-motor council and again have been for decades (I moved here for work in 96 (I think) and they already were back then), Think it was the year before lock down that we got a load of chargers put in under the Electric Blue group and it felt very much like the council was promised a grant if they installed a minimum number of chargers and no limitations on what or where they were palced. So no rapid chargers in or near the main shopping area, but fast chargers in residential areas, many in either pay for car parks (and you have to pay for parking while charging) else points on streets where it is hard to park. Oh and while 39p per kW charging may not sound bad at present electricity rates, this was from before Russia invaded the Ukraine and the price or electricity sky rocketed.
[edited to make it actually read like English - woops was more tired than I thought when I first posted]
[edited to make it actually read like English - woops was more tired than I thought when I first posted]
Edited by dapprman on Sunday 26th February 16:24
The core issue with local councils is that the red ones are anti car and the blue ones are anti EV.
Should chargers be paid for by the tax payer? No.
Central government should create a national map dictating where chargers are needed and the car vendors should pay for them as they sell each EV or group of EVs. Likewise employers who want employees to drive EVs to greenwash the company credentials, they need to pay into the charger installation pot, along with any business that wishes to engage with EV drivers. Car park landlords can also be mandated to install chargers.
Chargers paid for by tax payer money will be placed not where users need them but where councillors see the most PR brownie points. Contracts to service them will be an absolute rip-off and the general network will be as functional as the 70s public toilet network was and about as pleasant to use.
But the more important thing to be doing is to legally segregate the act of selling electricity from the act of levying a fee to use the charger. Ie you pay a commission for the transfer but the electricity is billed to your domestic account.
And any public charger that isn't working instantly starts inviting hourly penalties sufficient to ensure someone is sent to fix it by the owner immediately.
The UK's non domestic charging network needs to be built by private finance and with a big Govt stick in the background to beat them with if they fail to comply. That's how tax should be used. To force corporates to build the network and then beat them if they fail to maintain it.
Should chargers be paid for by the tax payer? No.
Central government should create a national map dictating where chargers are needed and the car vendors should pay for them as they sell each EV or group of EVs. Likewise employers who want employees to drive EVs to greenwash the company credentials, they need to pay into the charger installation pot, along with any business that wishes to engage with EV drivers. Car park landlords can also be mandated to install chargers.
Chargers paid for by tax payer money will be placed not where users need them but where councillors see the most PR brownie points. Contracts to service them will be an absolute rip-off and the general network will be as functional as the 70s public toilet network was and about as pleasant to use.
But the more important thing to be doing is to legally segregate the act of selling electricity from the act of levying a fee to use the charger. Ie you pay a commission for the transfer but the electricity is billed to your domestic account.
And any public charger that isn't working instantly starts inviting hourly penalties sufficient to ensure someone is sent to fix it by the owner immediately.
The UK's non domestic charging network needs to be built by private finance and with a big Govt stick in the background to beat them with if they fail to comply. That's how tax should be used. To force corporates to build the network and then beat them if they fail to maintain it.
No ideas for a name said:
silent ninja said:
I'm in East Staffordshire and Staffordshire as a whole is one of the worse areas in the country for public EV chargers. It doesn't make the cut for this funding though. Odd? Oxford is a fairly affluent city with good connections, yet it seems to be getting enormous investment in EV infrastructure.
There is no demand for the public chargers.No really - just before you all pile in...
This was Stafford town centre today.
The two chargers (four bays) over in Sainsbury's were also empty.
I guess that people that can afford EVs generally have their own driveways and home charging (it might be different in cities).
I know it isn't going to be a popular view, but not really seeing a good reason why tax payers should fund public charging.
As for whether government should be paying (in this instance approx 100 chargers, mostly 7kw, mostly in urban residential areas/streets) will cost approx £1m according to the article I posted in the OP.
This bit is the justification:
"A council report says private companies aren’t building charging points in Lincolnshire as many locations aren’t commercially-viable.
“Our sites include on and off-street locations, urban and rural communities, and deploy various charger point speeds based on local needs,” the report says."
The problem is that without someone who isn't out to make a financial return paying for the chargers, there won't be any chargers in such areas. But like it or not, those living in such areas will eventually, effectively be forced to switch from ICE to EV - by the government and their future ICE ban policy. That's where it gets tricky, if the government are to tell people what type of car they must drive, the government kind of has to do 'something' to make that practical and possible for the masses. Whether or not directly paying for them is the best solution is the part that's up for debate. As DonkeyApple lays out above, there are other ways they could mandate the funding of such chargers as part of the wider EV industries responsibilities.
As these are presently just pilot schemes, it is entirely possible the government are happy to spend a few million on 'seeing how it goes' and proving a workable solution, ahead of forming a policy that does pass the cost and responsibility onto those making/selling EV's.
Whatever the final solution is for the cost of installation and maintenance, the important thing I think is that at least something is starting to happen to make on-street residential chargers a reality. That means that sooner or later councils will be told they have to find the space, they can't complain about cables in the road etc, they have to accept is must and will be happening. They will also have to find ways of policing fair use and so on.
Something imperfect happening today is at least better than nothing at all being done - because as these forums make very clear, a lot of people are quite angry to hear that one day they will have to drive and electric car if they happen to live in a home with no hope of installing a private off street charger. I fully understand that feeling too - it can't be nice to know there is a plan that will one day force you to change your behavior with no subsequent plan to make that possible for you.
This bit is the justification:
"A council report says private companies aren’t building charging points in Lincolnshire as many locations aren’t commercially-viable.
“Our sites include on and off-street locations, urban and rural communities, and deploy various charger point speeds based on local needs,” the report says."
The problem is that without someone who isn't out to make a financial return paying for the chargers, there won't be any chargers in such areas. But like it or not, those living in such areas will eventually, effectively be forced to switch from ICE to EV - by the government and their future ICE ban policy. That's where it gets tricky, if the government are to tell people what type of car they must drive, the government kind of has to do 'something' to make that practical and possible for the masses. Whether or not directly paying for them is the best solution is the part that's up for debate. As DonkeyApple lays out above, there are other ways they could mandate the funding of such chargers as part of the wider EV industries responsibilities.
As these are presently just pilot schemes, it is entirely possible the government are happy to spend a few million on 'seeing how it goes' and proving a workable solution, ahead of forming a policy that does pass the cost and responsibility onto those making/selling EV's.
Whatever the final solution is for the cost of installation and maintenance, the important thing I think is that at least something is starting to happen to make on-street residential chargers a reality. That means that sooner or later councils will be told they have to find the space, they can't complain about cables in the road etc, they have to accept is must and will be happening. They will also have to find ways of policing fair use and so on.
Something imperfect happening today is at least better than nothing at all being done - because as these forums make very clear, a lot of people are quite angry to hear that one day they will have to drive and electric car if they happen to live in a home with no hope of installing a private off street charger. I fully understand that feeling too - it can't be nice to know there is a plan that will one day force you to change your behavior with no subsequent plan to make that possible for you.
OutInTheShed said:
Excessive government intervention will just mean the market for charging takes longer to evolve.
Companies are not going to provide a commercial solution at risk of being undercut by command economics.
Companies will not ever put chargers down residential streets without government intervention. They can't - the council will just say 'no - you can't put a car charger there'. They also won't ever do so unless they have to do so, because they know they'll never make any money.Companies are not going to provide a commercial solution at risk of being undercut by command economics.
They have to be forced to do it as part of their wider trading activities, and the only entity that can force that situation is the government.
One way or another we will end up with a solution where a street of terraced houses with no off road parking have a series of chargers for residents use along the road. The chargers will dispense power at a typical domestic rate or perhaps be tied to the users own home tariff - plus I expect a small % increase to fund the maintenance of the chargers via the local council. Nobody can predict exactly how to get to that point but it will happen and central government are the only power that can make it happen.
Hence, right now, we have these pilot schemes.
Truckosaurus said:
We keep hearing (and seeing) that provincial High Streets are on their knees. You'd think some enterprising councils would be installing cheap chargers to encourage EV owners to stop off and hope they spend some money while charging.
In my town the public chargers are on the edge of town in Tescos, McDonalds and the Drive Through Costa Coffees so they must think it is worth the installation costs.
You don't ever hear of the government proposing to fund chargers on rural A-roads as an encouragement to EV take-up either.
I don't think the supermarkets are making much if anything from the chargers. There's 2 BP ones at our local Asda, local fb group (imagine!) constantly moaning that one charger is permanently broken and the other is intermittent at best. BP installed them but it's the supermarkets responsibility to maintain them (apparently???), if they were making money they would have fixed them by now.In my town the public chargers are on the edge of town in Tescos, McDonalds and the Drive Through Costa Coffees so they must think it is worth the installation costs.
You don't ever hear of the government proposing to fund chargers on rural A-roads as an encouragement to EV take-up either.
Oddly one of my local pubs has just had some installed in the car park, all well and good but these are directly opposite a community hall car park across the road with 6 chargers barely used on it. It seems to be the mission in my neck of the woods to saturate very small areas, leaving other potential sites going to waste.
TheDeuce said:
As for whether government should be paying (in this instance approx 100 chargers, mostly 7kw, mostly in urban residential areas/streets) will cost approx £1m according to the article I posted in the OP.
This bit is the justification:
"A council report says private companies aren’t building charging points in Lincolnshire as many locations aren’t commercially-viable.
“Our sites include on and off-street locations, urban and rural communities, and deploy various charger point speeds based on local needs,” the report says."
The problem is that without someone who isn't out to make a financial return paying for the chargers, there won't be any chargers in such areas. But like it or not, those living in such areas will eventually, effectively be forced to switch from ICE to EV - by the government and their future ICE ban policy. That's where it gets tricky, if the government are to tell people what type of car they must drive, the government kind of has to do 'something' to make that practical and possible for the masses. Whether or not directly paying for them is the best solution is the part that's up for debate. As DonkeyApple lays out above, there are other ways they could mandate the funding of such chargers as part of the wider EV industries responsibilities.
As these are presently just pilot schemes, it is entirely possible the government are happy to spend a few million on 'seeing how it goes' and proving a workable solution, ahead of forming a policy that does pass the cost and responsibility onto those making/selling EV's.
Whatever the final solution is for the cost of installation and maintenance, the important thing I think is that at least something is starting to happen to make on-street residential chargers a reality. That means that sooner or later councils will be told they have to find the space, they can't complain about cables in the road etc, they have to accept is must and will be happening. They will also have to find ways of policing fair use and so on.
Something imperfect happening today is at least better than nothing at all being done - because as these forums make very clear, a lot of people are quite angry to hear that one day they will have to drive and electric car if they happen to live in a home with no hope of installing a private off street charger. I fully understand that feeling too - it can't be nice to know there is a plan that will one day force you to change your behavior with no subsequent plan to make that possible for you.
Those chargers will just sit there unused and soaking up endless taxpayer money every year in maintenance costs. This bit is the justification:
"A council report says private companies aren’t building charging points in Lincolnshire as many locations aren’t commercially-viable.
“Our sites include on and off-street locations, urban and rural communities, and deploy various charger point speeds based on local needs,” the report says."
The problem is that without someone who isn't out to make a financial return paying for the chargers, there won't be any chargers in such areas. But like it or not, those living in such areas will eventually, effectively be forced to switch from ICE to EV - by the government and their future ICE ban policy. That's where it gets tricky, if the government are to tell people what type of car they must drive, the government kind of has to do 'something' to make that practical and possible for the masses. Whether or not directly paying for them is the best solution is the part that's up for debate. As DonkeyApple lays out above, there are other ways they could mandate the funding of such chargers as part of the wider EV industries responsibilities.
As these are presently just pilot schemes, it is entirely possible the government are happy to spend a few million on 'seeing how it goes' and proving a workable solution, ahead of forming a policy that does pass the cost and responsibility onto those making/selling EV's.
Whatever the final solution is for the cost of installation and maintenance, the important thing I think is that at least something is starting to happen to make on-street residential chargers a reality. That means that sooner or later councils will be told they have to find the space, they can't complain about cables in the road etc, they have to accept is must and will be happening. They will also have to find ways of policing fair use and so on.
Something imperfect happening today is at least better than nothing at all being done - because as these forums make very clear, a lot of people are quite angry to hear that one day they will have to drive and electric car if they happen to live in a home with no hope of installing a private off street charger. I fully understand that feeling too - it can't be nice to know there is a plan that will one day force you to change your behavior with no subsequent plan to make that possible for you.
And it's completely unnecessary. In a little over ten years if any manufacturer on the planet wants to sell a car to a U.K. resident they won't be able to unless all those people without home charging have access to chargers. And there lies the simple solution. Want to sell a car in the U.K., cough up for the chargers. Want your employees to use EVs. Cough up for chargers. Want to be legally allowed to park cars in car parks? Cough up for chargers. Want to sell electricity in the U.K.? Cough up for chargers.
Ardennes92 said:
No ideas for a name said:
silent ninja said:
I'm in East Staffordshire and Staffordshire as a whole is one of the worse areas in the country for public EV chargers. It doesn't make the cut for this funding though. Odd? Oxford is a fairly affluent city with good connections, yet it seems to be getting enormous investment in EV infrastructure.
There is no demand for the public chargers.No really - just before you all pile in...
This was Stafford town centre today.
The two chargers (four bays) over in Sainsbury's were also empty.
I guess that people that can afford EVs generally have their own driveways and home charging (it might be different in cities).
I know it isn't going to be a popular view, but not really seeing a good reason why tax payers should fund public charging.
survivalist said:
Why would they? Imagine the ICE equivalent. A huge proportion of car owners can fill up for 30p a litre at home, but they might occasionally need to fill up at a petrol station. So they charge 10x as much as there isn’t nearly as much demand, the the cost to serve has changed after all.
I think it's a bit like coffee.Very cheap to make at home, but people happily pay a lot for it, and wait to get served and all that, when they are out and about.
Meanwhile your diesel driver has a thermos.
Truckosaurus said:
We keep hearing (and seeing) that provincial High Streets are on their knees. You'd think some enterprising councils would be installing cheap chargers to encourage EV owners to stop off and hope they spend some money while charging.
In my town the public chargers are on the edge of town in Tescos, McDonalds and the Drive Through Costa Coffees so they must think it is worth the installation costs.
You don't ever hear of the government proposing to fund chargers on rural A-roads as an encouragement to EV take-up either.
You'd think free city centre parking would be their first port-of-call to try and get people back into the shops. In my town the public chargers are on the edge of town in Tescos, McDonalds and the Drive Through Costa Coffees so they must think it is worth the installation costs.
You don't ever hear of the government proposing to fund chargers on rural A-roads as an encouragement to EV take-up either.
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