Solid State Battery Tech

[Crusoe]

Benefits should make them a lot more suited to electric car use with removal of the fire/explosion risk, faster charging with a higher energy density making them lighter for more range. Will it make all the other EVs outdated over night?

Toyota is already testing their solution and a new Chinese model has now shared its production ready design (375 mile range but no weight announced yet) https://carspiritpk.com/baoya-beats-toyota-to-reve...

VW following close behind in 2024 with prediction of 30%-50% more range and 50% less charge time.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/how-will-solid-...

[OutInTheShed]

Could be a few years from mass production still.

I think these announcements do the EV world no favours, because as you say, it makes existing tech look obsolescent, whereas in reality, a new EV today will be out of its first lease and probably on its third owner before Solid State becomes the norm.

Aren't there some solid state batteries 'on the street' in buses?
I've not kept up with the latest on that, but I thought service life of the batteries was still 'needing improvement'?

[TheDeuce]

OutInTheShed said:

Could be a few years from mass production still.

I think these announcements do the EV world no favours, because as you say, it makes existing tech look obsolescent, whereas in reality, a new EV today will be out of its first lease and probably on its third owner before Solid State becomes the norm.

Aren't there some solid state batteries 'on the street' in buses?
I've not kept up with the latest on that, but I thought service life of the batteries was still 'needing improvement'?

These new cars, flying the flag of solid state achievement... They're hybrids with a tiny battery - because they can't mass produce the cells.

It's been 'possible' to create solid state cells for about a decade but it's worth sod all really until they can automate the production.

I'm glad that day appears to be drawing closer but the first solid state cell cars don't actually signify anything in commercial terms. The first company to sell such cars will get a lot of interest, but the first company to sort out mass production... That company will be credited with transforming the world.

But until that point, I don't think anything released anytime soon will have any impact on full BEV residuals. When eventually solid state can be mass produced, it'll be slow and expensive in the early days and won't suddenly swamp the market and make current BEV's worthless. It's bound to have some sort of effect on values I suppose, but as a member of the human race, I'm far more excited about the new storage potential than I am worried about taking a small hit on a single car in my lifetime.

[phil4]

Don't forget that with any new tech, it'll carry a price premium on introduction.

I'd fully expect if and when it's ready for prime time, manufacturers will introduce it in their most expensive models first, at a higher price, with the perks of faster charging and longer range.

If it works, and is beneficial then it'll eventually replace current tech, but it won't be an overnight thing.

[annodomini2]

For EVs they need a powered rather than a ceramic electrolyte.

The ceramic ones lose the benefit as the battery structure needs to be much stronger and stiffer to stop the electrolyte from cracking and causing failures.

This is still a long way off.

I think Lithium Sulphur are more plausible in the near term. Double the energy density, cheaper materials. Can theoretically use existing production infrastructure.

Main issue has been life, but a lab in the US has come up with a method to extend this beyond current lithium ion stuff, but this is in the lab, they need to understand it better and make it reproducible.

[Nomme de Plum]

Thank you. Very informative.

Increased research budgets as we move more to EV will accelerate progress.

[OutInTheShed]

Nomme de Plum said:

Thank you. Very informative.

Increased research budgets as we move more to EV will accelerate progress.

Research budgets are already immense, and a lot of work has been done.

If the likes of VW are suggesting commercial launch next year, that might slip a bit, but I don't think they'd be setting themselves up to be seen to fail?

Once one or two new battery types reach mass production, more research will be focused in those particular directions,

One of the few things I'm sure about is that we can't see very far into the future with the car market at the moment.

[Frimley111R]

SS always seems to be 5 years away.

[Hammersia]

Nomme de Plum said:

Thank you. Very informative.

Increased research budgets as we move more to EV will accelerate progress.

I've seen some top scientists comments previously on lithium battery development and their view was that throwing money at R+D doesn't necessarily accelerate progress, that a lot of the battery chemistry advances in recent years were almost accidental / incidental to other research. That it was often a case of going with a few gut instincts and eventually some alchemy occurs.

The more promising angle I can see is where AI (Deepmind neural nets, as used for cracking the shapes of protein molecules recently) is used to optimise the battery chemistry.

[gmaz]

This is a pretty good summary of the forerunner battery technologies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1TBAWlbXKI

[blueacid]

Crusoe said:

Benefits should make them a lot more suited to electric car use with removal of the fire/explosion risk, faster charging with a higher energy density making them lighter for more range. Will it make all the other EVs outdated over night?

Toyota is already testing their solution and a new Chinese model has now shared its production ready design (375 mile range but no weight announced yet) https://carspiritpk.com/baoya-beats-toyota-to-reve...

VW following close behind in 2024 with prediction of 30%-50% more range and 50% less charge time.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/how-will-solid-...

I don't think it'll make them obsolete overnight; they won't suddenly stop holding a charge, or being able to drive around.

Even the very early Leaf gen 1's (with ancient battery chemistry, and without the learnings of battery temperature management applied) are still worth a good few grand; they're an excellent station car, or local trip car. Newer stuff only gets better from there.

I suppose it's a bit like when 4G came out; did it render obsolete all of the 3G phones? Nah, they just carried on doing what they had already done. There's better stuff on the market, but, that didn't prevent the existing stuff from working. (OK, fine, the upcoming shutdown of 3G somewhat now damages my analogy, but, it was a quick 'n' dirty comparison)