NAF EV Winter Range Test
Discussion
Here in Norway the Norwegian Automobile Association has for several years conducted winter and summer electric car testing for range and charging. The range tests have consisted of 20-30 cars driving in a "convoy" through urban and rural roads, each car driven until it stopped completely (and needing a rescue truck to be brought back). Today NAF conducted their 2023 Winter Range Test, absolutely worth reading. Here are a summary of the main findings:
The complete NAF test run through Google translate:
https://www-motor-no.translate.goog/bil/na-starter...
https://www-motor-no.translate.goog/bil/na-starter...
That's quite interesting.. Especially seeing the EQE and ID5...
Also Toyota's first steps into Full BEV not all that promising! - 34% !?
So for context you start with a WLTP of 300 miles, which in reality is going to be 250 miles, and then lose 34% of that in the middle of winter, dropping to just 165 miles of range! The EQE takes a similarly massive hit but at least starts with very good range and will still probably do over 200 miles, which is kind of the happy minimum for most people, in the UK at least.
My cars not on there but I suspect the results wouldn't be amazing, but I know that driven without and real effort to save range, it'll do 250 most of the year, around 200 on very cold days, so a drop of about 22%, which seems reasonable.
Also Toyota's first steps into Full BEV not all that promising! - 34% !?
So for context you start with a WLTP of 300 miles, which in reality is going to be 250 miles, and then lose 34% of that in the middle of winter, dropping to just 165 miles of range! The EQE takes a similarly massive hit but at least starts with very good range and will still probably do over 200 miles, which is kind of the happy minimum for most people, in the UK at least.
My cars not on there but I suspect the results wouldn't be amazing, but I know that driven without and real effort to save range, it'll do 250 most of the year, around 200 on very cold days, so a drop of about 22%, which seems reasonable.
Toyota withdrew the all wheel drive version of the Toyota bZ4X shortly before the test started. The same thing happened with the sister model, Subaru Solterra all wheel drive. When seeing how bad the Toyota bZ4X 2WD fared in this test, one can understand Toyotas decision.
The Norwegian Automobile Association have conducted similar tests summer and winter for many years now, and have included most of the BEV that have been sold here in Norway. Every test has been done on the same route from Oslo up into the mountains and back again, and the cars have been driven until the battery is completely depleted. I find these test interesting because they show real life range, not some hypothetical fantasy figures.
The temperatures today in the area along the route was between minus 5 and minus 10 degrees centigrades, so pretty cold.
The Norwegian Automobile Association have conducted similar tests summer and winter for many years now, and have included most of the BEV that have been sold here in Norway. Every test has been done on the same route from Oslo up into the mountains and back again, and the cars have been driven until the battery is completely depleted. I find these test interesting because they show real life range, not some hypothetical fantasy figures.
The temperatures today in the area along the route was between minus 5 and minus 10 degrees centigrades, so pretty cold.
For anyone interested in comparing BEV range in Norwegian conditions (and having some time to spare), here is a link to all previous BEV range tests conducted by NAF (run through Google translate):
https://www-motor-no.translate.goog/elbil/motors-s...
https://www-motor-no.translate.goog/elbil/motors-s...
SAAB95Aero said:
The complete NAF test run through Google translate:
https://www-motor-no.translate.goog/bil/na-starter...
Thanks for the translation - my Norwegian is pretty much non existent (a bit embarrassing as my grandfather was norwegian!https://www-motor-no.translate.goog/bil/na-starter...
Suppose I ought to get a model S then
not that I really want one…oop north said:
SAAB95Aero said:
The complete NAF test run through Google translate:
https://www-motor-no.translate.goog/bil/na-starter...
Thanks for the translation - my Norwegian is pretty much non existent (a bit embarrassing as my grandfather was norwegian!https://www-motor-no.translate.goog/bil/na-starter...
Suppose I ought to get a model S then
not that I really want one…TheDeuce said:
That's quite interesting.. Especially seeing the EQE and ID5...
Also Toyota's first steps into Full BEV not all that promising! - 34% !?
So for context you start with a WLTP of 300 miles, which in reality is going to be 250 miles, and then lose 34% of that in the middle of winter, dropping to just 165 miles of range! The EQE takes a similarly massive hit but at least starts with very good range and will still probably do over 200 miles, which is kind of the happy minimum for most people, in the UK at least.
My cars not on there but I suspect the results wouldn't be amazing, but I know that driven without and real effort to save range, it'll do 250 most of the year, around 200 on very cold days, so a drop of about 22%, which seems reasonable.
The Toyota got 200 miles in the test did it not?Also Toyota's first steps into Full BEV not all that promising! - 34% !?
So for context you start with a WLTP of 300 miles, which in reality is going to be 250 miles, and then lose 34% of that in the middle of winter, dropping to just 165 miles of range! The EQE takes a similarly massive hit but at least starts with very good range and will still probably do over 200 miles, which is kind of the happy minimum for most people, in the UK at least.
My cars not on there but I suspect the results wouldn't be amazing, but I know that driven without and real effort to save range, it'll do 250 most of the year, around 200 on very cold days, so a drop of about 22%, which seems reasonable.
buggalugs said:
TheDeuce said:
That's quite interesting.. Especially seeing the EQE and ID5...
Also Toyota's first steps into Full BEV not all that promising! - 34% !?
So for context you start with a WLTP of 300 miles, which in reality is going to be 250 miles, and then lose 34% of that in the middle of winter, dropping to just 165 miles of range! The EQE takes a similarly massive hit but at least starts with very good range and will still probably do over 200 miles, which is kind of the happy minimum for most people, in the UK at least.
My cars not on there but I suspect the results wouldn't be amazing, but I know that driven without and real effort to save range, it'll do 250 most of the year, around 200 on very cold days, so a drop of about 22%, which seems reasonable.
The Toyota got 200 miles in the test did it not?Also Toyota's first steps into Full BEV not all that promising! - 34% !?
So for context you start with a WLTP of 300 miles, which in reality is going to be 250 miles, and then lose 34% of that in the middle of winter, dropping to just 165 miles of range! The EQE takes a similarly massive hit but at least starts with very good range and will still probably do over 200 miles, which is kind of the happy minimum for most people, in the UK at least.
My cars not on there but I suspect the results wouldn't be amazing, but I know that driven without and real effort to save range, it'll do 250 most of the year, around 200 on very cold days, so a drop of about 22%, which seems reasonable.
It's the EQE and ID5 that surprised me the most, these are current and fairly recent EV's, they should be in the average area of results, not amongst the very worst..
CalisenQX said:
Not surprised at VW iD range.
Mine supposedly does 240 miles - never seen over 180 at full charge. In recent cold spell it was down to 130-140 max which is about 25% down due to cold, so about right looking at this test.
I've been confused by the ID range from day one. The earlier interiors were strangely lacking and didn't feel 'special' which the early adopters of EV were largely looking for - even if special in a Tesla meant you don't really get an interior, just a sodding great PC in the centre dash - but it was still new and exciting = special. I know the newer interiors are pretty decent in a VW way, but still not... stand out in any particular way.Mine supposedly does 240 miles - never seen over 180 at full charge. In recent cold spell it was down to 130-140 max which is about 25% down due to cold, so about right looking at this test.
The performance always seems underwhelming too. Even the GTX variants all seem to hit 60 in around 6 seconds, which is OK in an ICE car with a gtx/gti badge these days but pretty poor for a supposed performance EV - most are such are at least down to around 4 seconds now.
Nothing stellar in terms of range etc either, or any really innovative or unique tech..
I just don't get the USP, I can't see a specific strong aspect of the cars to get excited about or interested by. Perhaps as it's a VW that's the point, it's just supposed be a well built all rounder that does it's job competently and without upset?
You have one, what swung it for you?
TheDeuce said:
buggalugs said:
TheDeuce said:
That's quite interesting.. Especially seeing the EQE and ID5...
Also Toyota's first steps into Full BEV not all that promising! - 34% !?
So for context you start with a WLTP of 300 miles, which in reality is going to be 250 miles, and then lose 34% of that in the middle of winter, dropping to just 165 miles of range! The EQE takes a similarly massive hit but at least starts with very good range and will still probably do over 200 miles, which is kind of the happy minimum for most people, in the UK at least.
My cars not on there but I suspect the results wouldn't be amazing, but I know that driven without and real effort to save range, it'll do 250 most of the year, around 200 on very cold days, so a drop of about 22%, which seems reasonable.
The Toyota got 200 miles in the test did it not?Also Toyota's first steps into Full BEV not all that promising! - 34% !?
So for context you start with a WLTP of 300 miles, which in reality is going to be 250 miles, and then lose 34% of that in the middle of winter, dropping to just 165 miles of range! The EQE takes a similarly massive hit but at least starts with very good range and will still probably do over 200 miles, which is kind of the happy minimum for most people, in the UK at least.
My cars not on there but I suspect the results wouldn't be amazing, but I know that driven without and real effort to save range, it'll do 250 most of the year, around 200 on very cold days, so a drop of about 22%, which seems reasonable.
It's the EQE and ID5 that surprised me the most, these are current and fairly recent EV's, they should be in the average area of results, not amongst the very worst..
buggalugs said:
Yeah Car Wow have done another drive them till they stop video I saw last night and everyone did pretty badly vs advertised range. Merc went for longest but only cause it has a massive battery.
Motorway speeds and single digit temperatures. What do people expect, 100% efficiency no matter how they're driven and the conditions? I seem to remember ICE cars working the same way, would be interesting to see a similar test..
ETA - Had a bit of a look around.
Add another 5% or so for the difference between summer and winter MPG that we have all seen and you are at around a 25% drop in efficiency for an ICE car in similar circumstances, so exactly the same as CarWow found with the EV's compared to manufacturers figures.
I ask again, does this really come as any sort of surprise and what exactly is it that people are expecting?
Edited by SWoll on Thursday 2nd February 09:56
I believe the winter tests carried out by the Norwegian Automobile Association had the primary goal to de-mystify BEV range in Norwegian winter conditions. We have a large group of diesel- and petrolheads here that use range in winter time to dismiss BEV, based on the idea that BEV are unsuitable for the harsh winter conditions in Norway. Well, the NAF tests show that range is reduced compared to WLTP, but most people can find a BEV that has sufficient range for all year use.
SWoll said:
buggalugs said:
Yeah Car Wow have done another drive them till they stop video I saw last night and everyone did pretty badly vs advertised range. Merc went for longest but only cause it has a massive battery.
Motorway speeds and single digit temperatures. What do people expect, 100% efficiency no matter how they're driven and the conditions? I seem to remember ICE cars working the same way, would be interesting to see a similar test..
ETA - Had a bit of a look around.
Add another 5% or so for the difference between summer and winter MPG that we have all seen and you are at around a 25% drop in efficiency for an ICE car in similar circumstances, so exactly the same as CarWow found with the EV's compared to manufacturers figures.
I ask again, does this really come as any sort of surprise and what exactly is it that people are expecting?
Edited by SWoll on Thursday 2nd February 09:56
TheDeuce said:
ICE cars suffer the same sort of range impact due to higher driving speeds due to air resistance. But aren't they mildly more efficient in the cold? The air they use for combustion is slightly denser in the cold so you get a slightly bigger bang per droplet of fuel used.. although for all I know that may be negated by the higher air density increasing air resistance further too.
Apparently not. 3-5% drop in MPG at all speeds compared to running in summer from what I can gather having a poke around.I just don't get the thinking behind much of this testing and the associated comments. "Pretty badly against manufacturers claims", when did the manufacturer claim the car would do its WLTP figures at 70mph and 5 degrees?
All you get as a result is the usual suspects clapping like seals as the wave of confirmation bias washes over them, ignoring the fact that all of the cars on test will do 300+ miles (4-5 hours) of motorway running for most of the year, which is pretty impressive IMHO.
TheDeuce said:
ICE cars suffer the same sort of range impact due to higher driving speeds due to air resistance. But aren't they mildly more efficient in the cold? The air they use for combustion is slightly denser in the cold so you get a slightly bigger bang per droplet of fuel used.. although for all I know that may be negated by the higher air density increasing air resistance further too.
I believe so, although would this not only apply for NA engines; a Turbo/Supercharger would negate that advantage?SWoll said:
TheDeuce said:
ICE cars suffer the same sort of range impact due to higher driving speeds due to air resistance. But aren't they mildly more efficient in the cold? The air they use for combustion is slightly denser in the cold so you get a slightly bigger bang per droplet of fuel used.. although for all I know that may be negated by the higher air density increasing air resistance further too.
Apparently not. 3-5% drop in MPG at all speeds compared to running in summer from what I can gather having a poke around.I just don't get the thinking behind much of this testing and the associated comments. "Pretty badly against manufacturers claims", when did the manufacturer claim the car would do its WLTP figures at 70mph and 5 degrees?
All you get as a result is the usual suspects clapping like seals as the wave of confirmation bias washes over them, ignoring the fact that all of the cars on test will do 300+ miles (4-5 hours) of motorway running for most of the year, which is pretty impressive IMHO.
blueacid said:
TheDeuce said:
ICE cars suffer the same sort of range impact due to higher driving speeds due to air resistance. But aren't they mildly more efficient in the cold? The air they use for combustion is slightly denser in the cold so you get a slightly bigger bang per droplet of fuel used.. although for all I know that may be negated by the higher air density increasing air resistance further too.
I believe so, although would this not only apply for NA engines; a Turbo/Supercharger would negate that advantage?Colder (denser) air could mean more power, but not necessarily more efficiency.
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