£5k nissan leaf
Discussion
100 miles a week. 5k a year.
A petrol car might get 45mpg.
You can slice the numbers how you like but the max saving on fuel looks like about a grand a year?
So a cheap Polo might work out cheaper, if the Leaf depreciates heavily as the range decreases.
The battery is also going to be starting to be questionable in years of age, it may be easier to make the car pay if you did more miles.
I know someone who bought a cheap Leaf about 3 years ago, it's already paid for itself on fuel savings on their other car, and still works.
I think the fear is a £5k Leaf will suddenly become next to worthless, while a petrol Polo will cost you £2k, do everything you want and still be worth £1k after 3 years.
It's so cheap to keep a Leaf as an extra runabout local car, you wonder why people sell them. Do they think it's about to expire and want to grab £5k before the battery dies?
I think these questions can be more about faith, psychology or philosophy than mathematics?
A petrol car might get 45mpg.
You can slice the numbers how you like but the max saving on fuel looks like about a grand a year?
So a cheap Polo might work out cheaper, if the Leaf depreciates heavily as the range decreases.
The battery is also going to be starting to be questionable in years of age, it may be easier to make the car pay if you did more miles.
I know someone who bought a cheap Leaf about 3 years ago, it's already paid for itself on fuel savings on their other car, and still works.
I think the fear is a £5k Leaf will suddenly become next to worthless, while a petrol Polo will cost you £2k, do everything you want and still be worth £1k after 3 years.
It's so cheap to keep a Leaf as an extra runabout local car, you wonder why people sell them. Do they think it's about to expire and want to grab £5k before the battery dies?
I think these questions can be more about faith, psychology or philosophy than mathematics?
OutInTheShed said:
100 miles a week. 5k a year.
A petrol car might get 45mpg.
You can slice the numbers how you like but the max saving on fuel looks like about a grand a year?
So a cheap Polo might work out cheaper, if the Leaf depreciates heavily as the range decreases.
The battery is also going to be starting to be questionable in years of age, it may be easier to make the car pay if you did more miles.
I know someone who bought a cheap Leaf about 3 years ago, it's already paid for itself on fuel savings on their other car, and still works.
I think the fear is a £5k Leaf will suddenly become next to worthless, while a petrol Polo will cost you £2k, do everything you want and still be worth £1k after 3 years.
It's so cheap to keep a Leaf as an extra runabout local car, you wonder why people sell them. Do they think it's about to expire and want to grab £5k before the battery dies?
I think these questions can be more about faith, psychology or philosophy than mathematics?
Yes i think you're right.A petrol car might get 45mpg.
You can slice the numbers how you like but the max saving on fuel looks like about a grand a year?
So a cheap Polo might work out cheaper, if the Leaf depreciates heavily as the range decreases.
The battery is also going to be starting to be questionable in years of age, it may be easier to make the car pay if you did more miles.
I know someone who bought a cheap Leaf about 3 years ago, it's already paid for itself on fuel savings on their other car, and still works.
I think the fear is a £5k Leaf will suddenly become next to worthless, while a petrol Polo will cost you £2k, do everything you want and still be worth £1k after 3 years.
It's so cheap to keep a Leaf as an extra runabout local car, you wonder why people sell them. Do they think it's about to expire and want to grab £5k before the battery dies?
I think these questions can be more about faith, psychology or philosophy than mathematics?
I like the idea of an electric runabout and guess I'm trying to justify it.
PositronicRay said:
OutInTheShed said:
100 miles a week. 5k a year.
A petrol car might get 45mpg.
You can slice the numbers how you like but the max saving on fuel looks like about a grand a year?
So a cheap Polo might work out cheaper, if the Leaf depreciates heavily as the range decreases.
The battery is also going to be starting to be questionable in years of age, it may be easier to make the car pay if you did more miles.
I know someone who bought a cheap Leaf about 3 years ago, it's already paid for itself on fuel savings on their other car, and still works.
I think the fear is a £5k Leaf will suddenly become next to worthless, while a petrol Polo will cost you £2k, do everything you want and still be worth £1k after 3 years.
It's so cheap to keep a Leaf as an extra runabout local car, you wonder why people sell them. Do they think it's about to expire and want to grab £5k before the battery dies?
I think these questions can be more about faith, psychology or philosophy than mathematics?
Yes i think you're right.A petrol car might get 45mpg.
You can slice the numbers how you like but the max saving on fuel looks like about a grand a year?
So a cheap Polo might work out cheaper, if the Leaf depreciates heavily as the range decreases.
The battery is also going to be starting to be questionable in years of age, it may be easier to make the car pay if you did more miles.
I know someone who bought a cheap Leaf about 3 years ago, it's already paid for itself on fuel savings on their other car, and still works.
I think the fear is a £5k Leaf will suddenly become next to worthless, while a petrol Polo will cost you £2k, do everything you want and still be worth £1k after 3 years.
It's so cheap to keep a Leaf as an extra runabout local car, you wonder why people sell them. Do they think it's about to expire and want to grab £5k before the battery dies?
I think these questions can be more about faith, psychology or philosophy than mathematics?
I like the idea of an electric runabout and guess I'm trying to justify it.
Virtually every prediction about battery life in EVs over the years can be shown now to have been hugely pessimistic.
I see virtually no chance of it suddenly being worthless. Oil prices are not coming down. Car production is not keeping up with demand. ULEZs are popping up everywhere. People will be looking at the cheaper EVs thinking “hmmm, could it work?”
Even when the pack isn’t suitable in a vehicle anymore, the cells are worth a fair bit of money to homebrewers for making their own energy storage, and this is going to gain popularity. A proper home battery system is currently REALLY expensive - in the region of £1500 per kWh. Looks like Leaf cells are going for £300 per kWh currently on ebay. I think the original leaf had a 24kWh capacity so that’s a lot of money.
Even when the pack isn’t suitable in a vehicle anymore, the cells are worth a fair bit of money to homebrewers for making their own energy storage, and this is going to gain popularity. A proper home battery system is currently REALLY expensive - in the region of £1500 per kWh. Looks like Leaf cells are going for £300 per kWh currently on ebay. I think the original leaf had a 24kWh capacity so that’s a lot of money.
PositronicRay said:
2011 cars cheapish, are these worth buying? Not expecting much, local journeys, likely to do less 100 miles per week max, daily journeys of more than 50miles unlikely.
2013 on 24kwh cars are a better buy. better battery chemistry, no problematic electric handbrake. the 30kwh batteries are less reliableF20CN16 said:
I see virtually no chance of it suddenly being worthless. Oil prices are not coming down. Car production is not keeping up with demand. ULEZs are popping up everywhere. People will be looking at the cheaper EVs thinking “hmmm, could it work?”
Even when the pack isn’t suitable in a vehicle anymore, the cells are worth a fair bit of money to homebrewers for making their own energy storage, and this is going to gain popularity. A proper home battery system is currently REALLY expensive - in the region of £1500 per kWh. Looks like Leaf cells are going for £300 per kWh currently on ebay. I think the original leaf had a 24kWh capacity so that’s a lot of money.
So how much would degraded leaf cells go for? Could the battery be worth more than the car? Mind you it either have to have it delivered or it'd be a pretty slow 102 mile journey home. Even when the pack isn’t suitable in a vehicle anymore, the cells are worth a fair bit of money to homebrewers for making their own energy storage, and this is going to gain popularity. A proper home battery system is currently REALLY expensive - in the region of £1500 per kWh. Looks like Leaf cells are going for £300 per kWh currently on ebay. I think the original leaf had a 24kWh capacity so that’s a lot of money.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202203253...
Thats optimistic pricing....
You need the leafspy app to check the individual battery cell health. Such a poor battery state can be caused by all the cells being degraded or by a single cell failing totally.
Pay the extra £300 for the next one with a 60 mile range ;-)
But really - try for a 2013 on uk car - easy to spot because manual (foot operated) parking brake, dark grey seats.
You need the leafspy app to check the individual battery cell health. Such a poor battery state can be caused by all the cells being degraded or by a single cell failing totally.
Pay the extra £300 for the next one with a 60 mile range ;-)
But really - try for a 2013 on uk car - easy to spot because manual (foot operated) parking brake, dark grey seats.
Edited by TooLateForAName on Tuesday 31st May 12:48
OutInTheShed said:
100 miles a week. 5k a year.
A petrol car might get 45mpg.
You can slice the numbers how you like but the max saving on fuel looks like about a grand a year?
So a cheap Polo might work out cheaper, if the Leaf depreciates heavily as the range decreases.
I don't know about the UK in terms of taxes, but in terms of maintenance the two won't be even close. Same for depreciation.A petrol car might get 45mpg.
You can slice the numbers how you like but the max saving on fuel looks like about a grand a year?
So a cheap Polo might work out cheaper, if the Leaf depreciates heavily as the range decreases.
Having driven too many old Polo's (fyi: the Leaf is closer to the Golf in size), I can't say I've ever managed 45mpg in one. Maybe a brand new diesel one?
On your imo pessimistic numbers the Leaf will still be a far better investment over less than 5 years...
OutInTheShed said:
The battery is also going to be starting to be questionable in years of age, it may be easier to make the car pay if you did more miles.
Batteries generally don't die overnight but degrade. Degradation can be known from the day you bought it. Other than that, a lot less to go wrong than any ICE.OutInTheShed said:
It's so cheap to keep a Leaf as an extra runabout local car, you wonder why people sell them. Do they think it's about to expire and want to grab £5k before the battery dies?
By that measure you shouldn't buy any car second hand? Why would they sell a perfectly fine working car? Or do I need a whoosh moment for some sarcasm I'm missing out on? Edited by ZesPak on Tuesday 31st May 13:01
My sisters hubby's lease car came up for renewal early last year, i said "buy a cheap leaf whilst you decide what to replace it with" because they only use it for a 5 ml school run as their second car. They bought one for just over £5k. They sold it a month ago for just over £8k.
Look on ebay, a leaf battery pack is worth £2500 on it's own.....
Look on ebay, a leaf battery pack is worth £2500 on it's own.....
TooLateForAName said:
2013 on 24kwh cars are a better buy. better battery chemistry, no problematic electric handbrake. the 30kwh batteries are less reliable
I think that's the risk, 2 years hence, you find there's more choice of better used EVs, and values drop.I feel it's general with cars that the horizon isn't far away, and it may be best to get the value out of what you buy in a short time scale.
F20CN16 said:
I see virtually no chance of it suddenly being worthless. Oil prices are not coming down. Car production is not keeping up with demand. ULEZs are popping up everywhere. People will be looking at the cheaper EVs thinking “hmmm, could it work?”
Even when the pack isn’t suitable in a vehicle anymore, the cells are worth a fair bit of money to homebrewers for making their own energy storage, and this is going to gain popularity. A proper home battery system is currently REALLY expensive - in the region of £1500 per kWh. Looks like Leaf cells are going for £300 per kWh currently on ebay. I think the original leaf had a 24kWh capacity so that’s a lot of money.
I think hackers and homebrewers are increasingly looking at importing LiFePO cells from China at £150/kWh.Even when the pack isn’t suitable in a vehicle anymore, the cells are worth a fair bit of money to homebrewers for making their own energy storage, and this is going to gain popularity. A proper home battery system is currently REALLY expensive - in the region of £1500 per kWh. Looks like Leaf cells are going for £300 per kWh currently on ebay. I think the original leaf had a 24kWh capacity so that’s a lot of money.
Shagged batteries are only woorth anything because there are few of them for sale.
The curve of EV sales means few are reaching end of life today, but 10X as many will be up for recycling in 18months' time.
Electronics developments mean that when a car's battery pack reaches EOL in future, a high % of the cells will be knackered. It's not like the old days when 1 cell kills a battery pack and buying a dead pack gives you hundreds of fairly good cells.
Spending £5k to do a low mileage is a punt on the market.
My mate spent £5k, did a fair mileage, got his value out quickly just in saved diesel.
Like they say in the small print when selling you a punt on the share market " past performance doesn't foretell the future" Or Zummat.
OutInTheShed said:
I think that's the risk, 2 years hence, you find there's more choice of better used EVs, and values drop.
I think the opposite, sorry! :-)Plenty of people only drive a few miles a day, like my neighbours who both drive diesels but one drive 2.5ml to work, the other literally just 1ml roundtrip to drop the kids off at school that's under half a mile away
For these people a cheap, reliable, efficient, low maintance, quiet and smooth BEV is always going to be worth something, especially a fuel costs continue to climb (and an BEV can be pretty much as efficient and low consumption on a 1ml trip as a 100ml one)
OutInTheShed said:
Electronics developments mean that when a car's battery pack reaches EOL in future, a high % of the cells will be knackered. It's not like the old days when 1 cell kills a battery pack and buying a dead pack gives you hundreds of fairly good cells.
That's not how it works, sorry!The reason one cell tends to "kill" a a battery pack is because electroc-chemical aging is non-linear, with the lowest capacity cell undergowing the most ageing and so loosing the most capacity in the shortest time, whilst the other cells sit their idling (and with a much lower min/max votlage swing). No production BMS can charge balance enough current to bypass the critical cell in use, hence it needing physical replacement. But when replaced, the rest of the pack is generally in a much better state because it hasn't aged nearly as much. This leads to a highly non linear runaway degredation effect on the worst cell.
(typical cell balancing current used to er, balance packs during charging is around 1 amp. Charging current has to be limited to this value in the worst case of needing more time to balance the pack (for a 400v pack than means just 400w of charging power, not much) and during use a typical BEV battery pack often puts out 500A up to over 1000A for something high performance)
OutInTheShed said:
100 miles a week. 5k a year.
A petrol car might get 45mpg.
You can slice the numbers how you like but the max saving on fuel looks like about a grand a year?
So a cheap Polo might work out cheaper, if the Leaf depreciates heavily as the range decreases.
The battery is also going to be starting to be questionable in years of age, it may be easier to make the car pay if you did more miles.
I know someone who bought a cheap Leaf about 3 years ago, it's already paid for itself on fuel savings on their other car, and still works.
I think the fear is a £5k Leaf will suddenly become next to worthless, while a petrol Polo will cost you £2k, do everything you want and still be worth £1k after 3 years.
It's so cheap to keep a Leaf as an extra runabout local car, you wonder why people sell them. Do they think it's about to expire and want to grab £5k before the battery dies?
I think these questions can be more about faith, psychology or philosophy than mathematics?
Rory from Autotrader did very similar his battery was 8/12 i think. Max range was 40 miles. If you can live with that sort of range why not, however you just need to be aware that during the depths of winter this range will drop, or in summer if you have the AC on etc. Personally i would not want to be stuck like that, and then how long will you have until the battery has degraded to an amount that is not suitable for your needs?A petrol car might get 45mpg.
You can slice the numbers how you like but the max saving on fuel looks like about a grand a year?
So a cheap Polo might work out cheaper, if the Leaf depreciates heavily as the range decreases.
The battery is also going to be starting to be questionable in years of age, it may be easier to make the car pay if you did more miles.
I know someone who bought a cheap Leaf about 3 years ago, it's already paid for itself on fuel savings on their other car, and still works.
I think the fear is a £5k Leaf will suddenly become next to worthless, while a petrol Polo will cost you £2k, do everything you want and still be worth £1k after 3 years.
It's so cheap to keep a Leaf as an extra runabout local car, you wonder why people sell them. Do they think it's about to expire and want to grab £5k before the battery dies?
I think these questions can be more about faith, psychology or philosophy than mathematics?
Personally I would just get a VW UP or something 60-70mpg, £5k and none of the range anxiety. Sure you will have a tiny road tax to pay and fuel, but anything getting that sort of mpg even now will be very cheap motoring!
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