Are we heading towards Batterygate?
Discussion
Is Batterygate coming?
Of all the raw materials needed for EV batteries, nickel could be one of the first battery minerals to experience shortages. By 2024, global demand for nickel will have risen from 2.5 million tons to 3.4 million tons — outstripping supplies. The crunch will be felt within the following two years, with no obvious solution in sight.
https://techhq.com/2021/11/euro-carmakers-running-...
Of all the raw materials needed for EV batteries, nickel could be one of the first battery minerals to experience shortages. By 2024, global demand for nickel will have risen from 2.5 million tons to 3.4 million tons — outstripping supplies. The crunch will be felt within the following two years, with no obvious solution in sight.
https://techhq.com/2021/11/euro-carmakers-running-...
The crunch will be greater than you expect with the tribes saying 'no' to any more mining on sovereign land.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/27/us/mining-clean...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/27/us/mining-clean...
The0perator said:
Chinese have been buying up and buttering up all the places where these are mined, they'll have the west over a barrell soon enough
This is the usual FUD that rolls out, but isn't particularly relevant to nickel, it's a long established commodity.https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/features/top-nick...
charltjr said:
The “crunch” assumes everyone keeps using the same battery chemistry. Tesla have just started fitting non-nickel batteries to the model 3 standard range, for example.
Definitely interesting times ahead in the commodities markets though!
Isn’t it Cobalt they’ve dropped from the LFP batteries?Definitely interesting times ahead in the commodities markets though!
charltjr said:
The “crunch” assumes everyone keeps using the same battery chemistry. Tesla have just started fitting non-nickel batteries to the model 3 standard range, for example.
Definitely interesting times ahead in the commodities markets though!
True, but they still use lithium; the mining of which is being fought by the tribes.Definitely interesting times ahead in the commodities markets though!
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/02/1031726626/these-tr...
charltjr said:
The “crunch” assumes everyone keeps using the same battery chemistry. Tesla have just started fitting non-nickel batteries to the model 3 standard range, for example.
Definitely interesting times ahead in the commodities markets though!
Yeah the use of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are increasingly common out of China.Definitely interesting times ahead in the commodities markets though!
Evanivitch said:
Heres Johnny said:
Isn’t it Cobalt they’ve dropped from the LFP batteries?
N ?M ?
C ?
N ?
C ?
A ?
annodomini2 said:
Evanivitch said:
Heres Johnny said:
Isn’t it Cobalt they’ve dropped from the LFP batteries?
N ?M ?
C ?
N ?
C ?
A ?
NMNeil said:
charltjr said:
The “crunch” assumes everyone keeps using the same battery chemistry. Tesla have just started fitting non-nickel batteries to the model 3 standard range, for example.
Definitely interesting times ahead in the commodities markets though!
True, but they still use lithium; the mining of which is being fought by the tribes.Definitely interesting times ahead in the commodities markets though!
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/02/1031726626/these-tr...
Evanivitch said:
annodomini2 said:
Evanivitch said:
Heres Johnny said:
Isn’t it Cobalt they’ve dropped from the LFP batteries?
N ?M ?
C ?
N ?
C ?
A ?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/plat...
I did ask it ask it as a question so no need to try and be smart arses
NMNeil said:
True, but they still use lithium; the mining of which is being fought by the tribes.
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/02/1031726626/these-tr...
I didn't realise the Cornish were still in hill forts.https://www.npr.org/2021/09/02/1031726626/these-tr...
https://cornishlithium.com/
JonnyVTEC said:
What’s all that chemistry sarcasm above about?
It's just pointing out that Cobalt hasn't been dropped from batteries. It's very much alive and kicking. Companies are spewing out media about how they would like to drop it, plan to drop it, intend to drop it and doing so in a manner to give a suggestion/illusion that it's happening but under the PR guff it's all about having to wait for a commercially viable technology that will enable the dream. It's one of those issues highlighting that Li batteries are not a transport solution but a stepping stone, a bridge until viable energy storage is discovered which for transport applications may still be an extremely long way off so resource constraints are very likely to hamper the wider adoption of EVs beyond the most affluent global hubs.
DonkeyApple said:
It's just pointing out that Cobalt hasn't been dropped from batteries. It's very much alive and kicking. Companies are spewing out media about how they would like to drop it, plan to drop it, intend to drop it and doing so in a manner to give a suggestion/illusion that it's happening but under the PR guff it's all about having to wait for a commercially viable technology that will enable the dream.
It's one of those issues highlighting that Li batteries are not a transport solution but a stepping stone, a bridge until viable energy storage is discovered which for transport applications may still be an extremely long way off so resource constraints are very likely to hamper the wider adoption of EVs beyond the most affluent global hubs.
It's one of those issues highlighting that Li batteries are not a transport solution but a stepping stone, a bridge until viable energy storage is discovered which for transport applications may still be an extremely long way off so resource constraints are very likely to hamper the wider adoption of EVs beyond the most affluent global hubs.
LFP is here today and Cobalt free. It's used widely in China across many brands and UK-market Model 3 SR is LFP. A
What I was pointing out is that the N in NMC and NCA is nickel. You lose the N and C and you lost most of the Nickel and Cobalt required in the production of the battery.
LFP has some great properties. Far less likely to have thermal runaway, much better durability at high states of charge. But it is heavier, and will provide less peak power.
Evanivitch said:
DonkeyApple said:
It's just pointing out that Cobalt hasn't been dropped from batteries. It's very much alive and kicking. Companies are spewing out media about how they would like to drop it, plan to drop it, intend to drop it and doing so in a manner to give a suggestion/illusion that it's happening but under the PR guff it's all about having to wait for a commercially viable technology that will enable the dream.
It's one of those issues highlighting that Li batteries are not a transport solution but a stepping stone, a bridge until viable energy storage is discovered which for transport applications may still be an extremely long way off so resource constraints are very likely to hamper the wider adoption of EVs beyond the most affluent global hubs.
It's one of those issues highlighting that Li batteries are not a transport solution but a stepping stone, a bridge until viable energy storage is discovered which for transport applications may still be an extremely long way off so resource constraints are very likely to hamper the wider adoption of EVs beyond the most affluent global hubs.
LFP is here today and Cobalt free. It's used widely in China across many brands and UK-market Model 3 SR is LFP. A
What I was pointing out is that the N in NMC and NCA is nickel. You lose the N and C and you lost most of the Nickel and Cobalt required in the production of the battery.
LFP has some great properties. Far less likely to have thermal runaway, much better durability at high states of charge. But it is heavier, and will provide less peak power.
Evangelism only substitutes for reality for a short while. Best to focus more on reality when looking to make big changes.
Or put it another way, if demand for Ni or Co were about to drop anytime soon then you wouldn't be looking at the pricing action at the exchanges or the levels of investment in extraction that we are currently witnessing.
Real money flow trumps PR output.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Tuesday 28th December 10:05
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