EVs when the temperature drops.
Discussion
I've had my Tesla model 3 SR+ for nearly 3 months now, and on the whole it's been great, a few gripes but nothing major.
However....in the last week or so, since the temperature has dropped slightly, I've noticed some dramatic changes, none that fill me with any confidence.
My car has a WLTP range of 240, yet on my 13 miles commute into Manchester I'm noticing a range drop of around 25 or so, more if I have the heated seat on and cabin heater.
I'm also noticing the drain when parked from around 2-3 miles per 24 hours up to about 10. I'm told this is because the battery has to be kept above a minimum temp so drain increases as temp drops.
Suddenly a 240 mile 'range' is more like 120/130.
Given that we're not even into winter yet, it doesn't bode well.
Shame this, I really like the car, the tech, the overall driving experience but I think the range really does need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt.
Of course I can charge overnight but I don't want to have to when I have a quoted range that should easily cover the whole week, but currently after 3 days I'm down to about 60 miles range and into the world of limited power.
Interested to hear other people's thoughts and experiences.
Also, I know my energy consumption is much less at say 35mph Vs motorway speed, yet even when in stop start traffic it's through the roof we just the cabin heater on.
Today is 7 degrees outside, i charged from 70 miles to 170 this morning and the Mrs has just travelled 12 miles, yet range gone down by 23, just with cabin heater on (and I pre heated while on charge).
I'm swapping for a performance next month so the additional battery capacity will help but I'm starting to feel a little short changed.
However....in the last week or so, since the temperature has dropped slightly, I've noticed some dramatic changes, none that fill me with any confidence.
My car has a WLTP range of 240, yet on my 13 miles commute into Manchester I'm noticing a range drop of around 25 or so, more if I have the heated seat on and cabin heater.
I'm also noticing the drain when parked from around 2-3 miles per 24 hours up to about 10. I'm told this is because the battery has to be kept above a minimum temp so drain increases as temp drops.
Suddenly a 240 mile 'range' is more like 120/130.
Given that we're not even into winter yet, it doesn't bode well.
Shame this, I really like the car, the tech, the overall driving experience but I think the range really does need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt.
Of course I can charge overnight but I don't want to have to when I have a quoted range that should easily cover the whole week, but currently after 3 days I'm down to about 60 miles range and into the world of limited power.
Interested to hear other people's thoughts and experiences.
Also, I know my energy consumption is much less at say 35mph Vs motorway speed, yet even when in stop start traffic it's through the roof we just the cabin heater on.
Today is 7 degrees outside, i charged from 70 miles to 170 this morning and the Mrs has just travelled 12 miles, yet range gone down by 23, just with cabin heater on (and I pre heated while on charge).
I'm swapping for a performance next month so the additional battery capacity will help but I'm starting to feel a little short changed.
Some info here:
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/winter-driving...
https://ev-database.uk/car/1177/Tesla-Model-3-Stan...
Suggests combined cold weather range of 175 miles. So 130 sounds wrong.
One advantage of charging every night on a timer, is you can leave the car plugged in, so in the morning, preconditioning battery and climate comes from the wall.
What is your average Wh/mi in different weather conditions? I think maybe to get rated range you need something like 250 Wh/m?
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/winter-driving...
https://ev-database.uk/car/1177/Tesla-Model-3-Stan...
Suggests combined cold weather range of 175 miles. So 130 sounds wrong.
One advantage of charging every night on a timer, is you can leave the car plugged in, so in the morning, preconditioning battery and climate comes from the wall.
What is your average Wh/mi in different weather conditions? I think maybe to get rated range you need something like 250 Wh/m?
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 8th November 15:31
I think the problem with your maths is that you are assuming that the reduction in range over a short journey is proportionate to the reduction in range over a longer journey in the same conditions. Now repeating the same short journey multiple times will give you the shorter range, but one longer journey would not - because you are only heating the battery and cabin up once - so each time you start from cold the battery and cabin need to be warmed. No idea of what that might be (and it's going to depend on ambient temp and the temp the car was left at and how warm you have it etc etc) but let's say it's 3 kWh for a certain set of temperatures. If you do one 150 mile journey you will lose 3 kWh warming the car, but if you do 5x30 mile journeys you will lose 15 kWh. It won't quite work like that as colder temperatures will also mean you do need to warm the interior as you travel around...
manracer said:
Suddenly a 240 mile 'range' is more like 120/130.
Not really though...As others have said, just like with an ICE, those first few miles are really bad for your economy. If you only do short journeys with lots of drain from heating then yes your consumption per mile will be high and therefore your range from that charge will be quite a bit less than the book figure, similar to your MPG figures and range from a tank of fuel would be.
In reality, does it matter on these short trips?
If you needed the range then you would be charging overnight beforehand and preheating before setting off anyway, and once everything is heated up your consumption per mile will average out to be a much more reasonable figure and your range will be higher too. You'd be hard pushed to get less than 175 miles out of a charge in your SR+ on a long journey where you need the range.
Sambucket said:
Some info here:
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/winter-driving...
https://ev-database.uk/car/1177/Tesla-Model-3-Stan...
Suggests combined cold weather range of 175 miles. So 130 sounds wrong.
One advantage of charging every night on a timer, is you can leave the car plugged in, so in the morning, preconditioning battery and climate comes from the wall.
What is your average Wh/mi in different weather conditions? I think maybe to get rated range you need something like 250 Wh/m?
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/winter-driving...
https://ev-database.uk/car/1177/Tesla-Model-3-Stan...
Suggests combined cold weather range of 175 miles. So 130 sounds wrong.
One advantage of charging every night on a timer, is you can leave the car plugged in, so in the morning, preconditioning battery and climate comes from the wall.
What is your average Wh/mi in different weather conditions? I think maybe to get rated range you need something like 250 Wh/m?
Edited by Sambucket on Friday 8th November 15:31
I have free supercharger use as well as free Polar plus usage so try not to charge at home if I can get away with it, until last week a weekly trip to the local supercharger was sufficient.
A good trip has seen 200Wh/mi, usually around 280 average.
This last week I've struggled to get to work before 400 and last night when it took 80 minutes to cover 13 miles due to traffic having the heated seat, cabin heater, lights and wipers on, when I pulled up at home it was 480. It was around 700 for the first 3 miles, peaking at 895Wh/mi.
That 175 cold weather range might be right on a 175 mile drive, but on a 13 miles commute in stop start traffic using heating it's not realistic.
oop north said:
I think the problem with your maths is that you are assuming that the reduction in range over a short journey is proportionate to the reduction in range over a longer journey in the same conditions. Now repeating the same short journey multiple times will give you the shorter range, but one longer journey would not - because you are only heating the battery and cabin up once - so each time you start from cold the battery and cabin need to be warmed. No idea of what that might be (and it's going to depend on ambient temp and the temp the car was left at and how warm you have it etc etc) but let's say it's 3 kWh for a certain set of temperatures. If you do one 150 mile journey you will lose 3 kWh warming the car, but if you do 5x30 mile journeys you will lose 15 kWh. It won't quite work like that as colder temperatures will also mean you do need to warm the interior as you travel around...
No I'm actually agreeing with you, my man maths is to say that due to my usage ( 13 miles commute) that the theoretical range is not just hard to achieve, you cannot achieve anything like it. I know a petrol or diesel car would have an issue too, but I don't think it would be up this magnitude.Let's not forget I'm not driving fast here or even accelerating quickly, I'm on a commute with 5 speed cameras.
Daaaveee said:
manracer said:
Suddenly a 240 mile 'range' is more like 120/130.
Not really though...As others have said, just like with an ICE, those first few miles are really bad for your economy. If you only do short journeys with lots of drain from heating then yes your consumption per mile will be high and therefore your range from that charge will be quite a bit less than the book figure, similar to your MPG figures and range from a tank of fuel would be.
In reality, does it matter on these short trips?
If you needed the range then you would be charging overnight beforehand and preheating before setting off anyway, and once everything is heated up your consumption per mile will average out to be a much more reasonable figure and your range will be higher too. You'd be hard pushed to get less than 175 miles out of a charge in your SR+ on a long journey where you need the range.
I'm fully aware how it's the same scenario with ICE but it's no way near as severe.
My Scirocco R would lose about 25% theoretical range commuting Vs motorway.
This appears more like 45/50%. I'm going to monitor and see, I'm not anti EV, obviously, I have the model 3, I'm saying the losses due to cold weather + committee are more than I anticipated.
If I did regular long journeys then I wouldn't of got the SR+.
manracer said:
the theoretical range is not just hard to achieve, you cannot achieve anything like it. I know a petrol or diesel car would have an issue too, but I don't think it would be up this magnitude.
issue is that ICE has heat as a by-product, and modern small capacity cars warm up pretty quickly.the Tesla has to use additional energy to heat its battery and your cabin.
CABC said:
manracer said:
the theoretical range is not just hard to achieve, you cannot achieve anything like it. I know a petrol or diesel car would have an issue too, but I don't think it would be up this magnitude.
issue is that ICE has heat as a by-product, and modern small capacity cars warm up pretty quickly.the Tesla has to use additional energy to heat its battery and your cabin.
As I say, up until a week it wasn't an issue.
I have a lot less range to start off with in my Soul EV, but generally the heated steering wheel and seats use a lot less energy that heating the air in the cabin. So I tend to switch those on first, then keep the cabin air heating off if I can avoid using it (especially if the car is pre-heated at home in the morning), or at least set as low as is still comfortable and still keeps the windows clear if it is damp.
CABC said:
manracer said:
the theoretical range is not just hard to achieve, you cannot achieve anything like it. I know a petrol or diesel car would have an issue too, but I don't think it would be up this magnitude.
issue is that ICE has heat as a by-product, and modern small capacity cars warm up pretty quickly.the Tesla has to use additional energy to heat its battery and your cabin.
My 530d F10 would easily average 45mpg on a 13 mile trip starting from cold and overall averaged about the same. This last week I’ve been making exactly that length of trip and back, once a day, and nothing more each day, in my son’s small capacity (1.2/1.4?) diesel Qashqai. It’s averaged 62 mpg over the 4 days, 100 or so miles. 8 x 13 mile trips, 8 cold starts.
So 13 mile cold start runs aren’t much of an issue in terms of mpg, IMO.
But it’s not the point really. Compared with an EV, ICEs are horribly inefficient; we know that. The comparison’s just not valid or meaningful.
It shouldn’t be unexpected for an EV, especially not preconditioned, to be badly hit on range in winter got all the reasons above. All one can do is plan charging and use to optimise range and then hope it’s enough.
Not right if the manufacturer doesn’t give reasonable estimates, of course, but not to be unexpected either maybe.
manracer said:
As I say, up until a week it wasn't an issue.
My point is, is it reeeally an issue?!I'm having the same experience with my i3 as its my first winter with an EV, but having to plug it in overnight once more a week isn't a problem.
On a journey where I needed the range, the consumption would be less, so the range wouldn't be as bad as it seems compared to lots of short journeys.
Daaaveee said:
manracer said:
As I say, up until a week it wasn't an issue.
My point is, is it reeeally an issue?!I'm having the same experience with my i3 as its my first winter with an EV, but having to plug it in overnight once more a week isn't a problem.
On a journey where I needed the range, the consumption would be less, so the range wouldn't be as bad as it seems compared to lots of short journeys.
When I have free charging at supercharger 10 miles away, yes it is an issue.
Daaaveee said:
My point is, is it reeeally an issue?!
I'm having the same experience with my i3 as its my first winter with an EV, but having to plug it in overnight once more a week isn't a problem.
On a journey where I needed the range, the consumption would be less, so the range wouldn't be as bad as it seems compared to lots of short journeys.
It isn't an issue at all for him, is it? Youth of today, don't know they're born etc - when I had a 2015 i3 with 55 miles range (and that's with no heat on, thick scarf, woolly gloves, hat) on the coldest days - now that was an issue for an 80-mile round trip. Good job I had a rex! I'm having the same experience with my i3 as its my first winter with an EV, but having to plug it in overnight once more a week isn't a problem.
On a journey where I needed the range, the consumption would be less, so the range wouldn't be as bad as it seems compared to lots of short journeys.
manracer said:
I'm also noticing the drain when parked from around 2-3 miles per 24 hours up to about 10. I'm told this is because the battery has to be kept above a minimum temp so drain increases as temp drops.
Bit of a bugger if you arrive at Heathrow for a 2 week winter holiday with around 100 mile range left. Not great if you arrive full!Daaaveee said:
My point is, is it reeeally an issue?!
I'm having the same experience with my i3 as its my first winter with an EV, but having to plug it in overnight once more a week isn't a problem.
It's my fourth winter with an EV, any who claims EVs are as easy to use in winter for long distance trips where time is important is talking BS.I'm having the same experience with my i3 as its my first winter with an EV, but having to plug it in overnight once more a week isn't a problem.
For two car families, having one EV is not an issue, as if needed you can just take the combustion car.
It takes ALOT of commitment to have an all EV drivetrain even if you only do the occasional long trip in winter.
Saying range is fine 99% of the time is like saying your OK getting on an aeroplane that makes it to its destination 99% of the time. Bottas beat Hamilton by 4 seconds over a 1hr 33min race, that's a 0.1% difference between been the winner and first place of the lossers.
The 1% of trips may be really important, it may not, how important depends on the user/situation, but EVs at present are simply more inconvenient compared to combustion cars in some situations, especially in winter.
The fact EVs still remain more expensive to buy doesn't help. Paying more for less convince isn't something more people are happy to do.
The longer I own/use EVs the more convinced I am mass adoption is a long way off.
Edited by gangzoom on Friday 8th November 17:36
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