Lpg what went wrong!!!
Discussion
Why has LPG not become popular??
I understand that people found it hard to justify the Extra money to install and loss of space in your car with the tank.
But as an environmentally friendly fuel I don't understand why its not being used.
I would quite happily have an everyday LPG car, as a hybrid it would make even more sense as I believe LPG can be quite high mpg.
I understand that people found it hard to justify the Extra money to install and loss of space in your car with the tank.
But as an environmentally friendly fuel I don't understand why its not being used.
I would quite happily have an everyday LPG car, as a hybrid it would make even more sense as I believe LPG can be quite high mpg.
We are on Piston Heads so of course my answer comes totally unprepared and bereft of any factual information.
1. Availability of fuel
2. Additional servicing costs
3. LPG hurts engines (heresay)
4. Image
If you get a big engined petrol you invite the downsides of poor MPG. Most will make a decision to get a smaller, more efficient petrol or diesel. Unless you run RR V8's and tow a caravan.
1. Availability of fuel
2. Additional servicing costs
3. LPG hurts engines (heresay)
4. Image
If you get a big engined petrol you invite the downsides of poor MPG. Most will make a decision to get a smaller, more efficient petrol or diesel. Unless you run RR V8's and tow a caravan.
M4CK 1 said:
Why has LPG not become popular??
I understand that people found it hard to justify the Extra money to install and loss of space in your car with the tank.
But as an environmentally friendly fuel I don't understand why its not being used.
I would quite happily have an everyday LPG car, as a hybrid it would make even more sense as I believe LPG can be quite high mpg.
I had a car converted to LPG some years ago. Nissan Primera I think it was (Company hack for which I had to pay private fuel with a long two way commute to work resulting in me looking to cut running costs - work paid for the conversion). At the time, you had to look for fuel stations with LPG pumps - mainly BP at the time, iirc. I understand that people found it hard to justify the Extra money to install and loss of space in your car with the tank.
But as an environmentally friendly fuel I don't understand why its not being used.
I would quite happily have an everyday LPG car, as a hybrid it would make even more sense as I believe LPG can be quite high mpg.
LPG is not quite as efficient as normal unleaded as a fuel. The good mpg figures were based on the combined range of the normal fuel tank and the LPG tank and of course the cost of LPG was at the time about half the cost of normal unleaded. I found it quite useful to reduce my running costs, especially as I didn’t have to pay the conversion costs - although there were grants available at the time to offset this.
I think it is simply that hybrid technology came along and was far more convenient than LPG from a user perspective. I have also wondered what happened to hydrogen fuel cell technology....guess that is a cost issue.
RobDickinson said:
Manufacturers couldn't make it pass reliability or emmisions so wouldn't offer it from the factory and that killed it.
3rd party conversions are hit and miss.
From what I've read LPG has a higher octane so with the age of turbo's surely modern manufacturers could design a reliable LPG engine which would be quite efficiently with it. 3rd party conversions are hit and miss.
I thought LPG was environmentally friendly as its co2 free.
As with all things demand will bring increased supply.
I just can't get my head around that EV is the most environmentally way and the answer to saving the planet.
Not everybody has a driveway to plug there EV in and say you live in a street with terraced houses you'll be fighting with the neighbours to get your car charged and forget people have more than 1 car. A long journey in an EV will need 1-2 hours stops to do 300 mile journey(if there's an available charging point), the infrastructure to supply electricity to every home is no where near there.
Manufacturing batteries isn't exactly carbon neutral.
its not co2 free, there is only a slight reduction in co2, and that corresponds to a loss in power and energy density. it does have much lower nox and particulates which should make it favourable, and the reason it is used in indoor forklifts, but "improvements" in diesel refinement, power and efficiency was the primary killer. I briefly tried to make a living doing conversions, but most people for run of the mill stuff went diesel, and for the people whe remained, when I was doing £1700 conversions using quality equipment fitted to a high standard it was hard to compete against the polish t
t that started up in the next village doing £850 conversions using stolen tools, tanks secured with only a few rivnuts, pipes and wiring just thrown in, no underseal or galv paint to stop corrosion setting in to the new holes and fixings, drilling the manifolds in situ dropping swarf into the intake.
A few would listen, but the majority of customers by nature of what they were trying to acheive were in pennypinching mode, and so it was either the odd american motor, or remedial works on bodged installs, it didn't pay enough to be worth the aggro and back into electronics for me.
I still hold out hope that with all these turbocharged petrols out now liquid phase lpg injection will become popular, as on a turbo lpli boosts power and efficiency over petrol by a faor amount due to the chargecooling effect of vapourising the fuel in the inlet rather than in the reducer.
I really want an early ratty cayenne turbo on lpli to run as a shed, just for sts and giggles.
t that started up in the next village doing £850 conversions using stolen tools, tanks secured with only a few rivnuts, pipes and wiring just thrown in, no underseal or galv paint to stop corrosion setting in to the new holes and fixings, drilling the manifolds in situ dropping swarf into the intake.A few would listen, but the majority of customers by nature of what they were trying to acheive were in pennypinching mode, and so it was either the odd american motor, or remedial works on bodged installs, it didn't pay enough to be worth the aggro and back into electronics for me.
I still hold out hope that with all these turbocharged petrols out now liquid phase lpg injection will become popular, as on a turbo lpli boosts power and efficiency over petrol by a faor amount due to the chargecooling effect of vapourising the fuel in the inlet rather than in the reducer.
I really want an early ratty cayenne turbo on lpli to run as a shed, just for s
ts and giggles. Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Tuesday 22 October 01:06
I just had to Google the co2 emissions, and over 5l of fuel per 100 km LPG is 30% better than diesel and petrol.
Also electric vehicles aren't completely carbon neutral as the mass production of lithium batteries, requires mining, transportation of materials and an enormous amount of power to produce. Generally the batteries are produced in China and south Korea and the metals are mined in Africa, with child labour.
Also electric vehicles aren't completely carbon neutral as the mass production of lithium batteries, requires mining, transportation of materials and an enormous amount of power to produce. Generally the batteries are produced in China and south Korea and the metals are mined in Africa, with child labour.
M4CK 1 said:
I just had to Google the co2 emissions, and over 5l of fuel per 100 km LPG is 30% better than diesel and petrol.
Also electric vehicles aren't completely carbon neutral as the mass production of lithium batteries, requires mining, transportation of materials and an enormous amount of power to produce. Generally the batteries are produced in China and south Korea and the metals are mined in Africa, with child labour.
Ahh more car/oil industry bAlso electric vehicles aren't completely carbon neutral as the mass production of lithium batteries, requires mining, transportation of materials and an enormous amount of power to produce. Generally the batteries are produced in China and south Korea and the metals are mined in Africa, with child labour.
ks, production of any resource be it for a battery, diamonds or aluminium (smelting uses huge amounts of energy and can produce extremely nasty pollutants) can be ethical or unethical, most EU ev manufacturers sign up to ethical standards of resource production And petrol / diesel production uses huge amounts of energy in its collection, shipping, refinement (massive amounts) and transportation to refuelling stations before its even burnt in a vehicle. Just look at where they are forced to extract oil from.
As for LPG there seamed to be no political will in the UK to encourage take up and eco efforts focused on lovely diesels, no doubt after heavy lobbying from the car industry that wants no change to the status que
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Tuesday 22 October 05:25
I think that few car manufacturers offered it from brand new was a big issue plus the conversions were too expensive for those looking to save money. Pay back was too long. Government grants dissappeared and that was it, plus it can be hard to find lpg to fill up.
Perhaps they should have encouraged taxis to use it, would have helped emissions in town centres. But it's day has come and gone.
Perhaps they should have encouraged taxis to use it, would have helped emissions in town centres. But it's day has come and gone.
borcy said:
I think that few car manufacturers offered it from brand new was a big issue plus the conversions were too expensive for those looking to save money. Pay back was too long. Government grants dissappeared and that was it, plus it can be hard to find lpg to fill up.
Perhaps they should have encouraged taxis to use it, would have helped emissions in town centres. But it's day has come and gone.
I think it was Vauxhall who did a dual fuel astra. Thought at this time it was a very good idea. Perhaps they should have encouraged taxis to use it, would have helped emissions in town centres. But it's day has come and gone.
To be honest, I have no want for a EV. I think even though they can be quick, the total lack of character will do my head in. A hybrid might be a good option but to keep it green an LPG fuelled engine would be a really good option.
There's very few places you can get car charged at the moment but I'm sure they'll increase and the same with LPG, supply and demand!
M4CK 1 said:
borcy said:
I think that few car manufacturers offered it from brand new was a big issue plus the conversions were too expensive for those looking to save money. Pay back was too long. Government grants dissappeared and that was it, plus it can be hard to find lpg to fill up.
Perhaps they should have encouraged taxis to use it, would have helped emissions in town centres. But it's day has come and gone.
I think it was Vauxhall who did a dual fuel astra. Thought at this time it was a very good idea. Perhaps they should have encouraged taxis to use it, would have helped emissions in town centres. But it's day has come and gone.
To be honest, I have no want for a EV. I think even though they can be quick, the total lack of character will do my head in. A hybrid might be a good option but to keep it green an LPG fuelled engine would be a really good option.
There's very few places you can get car charged at the moment but I'm sure they'll increase and the same with LPG, supply and demand!
M4CK 1 said:
I think it was Vauxhall who did a dual fuel astra. Thought at this time it was a very good idea.
To be honest, I have no want for a EV. I think even though they can be quick, the total lack of character will do my head in. A hybrid might be a good option but to keep it green an LPG fuelled engine would be a really good option.
There's very few places you can get car charged at the moment but I'm sure they'll increase and the same with LPG, supply and demand!
Out of interest have you ever driven one? I'm assuming not.To be honest, I have no want for a EV. I think even though they can be quick, the total lack of character will do my head in. A hybrid might be a good option but to keep it green an LPG fuelled engine would be a really good option.
There's very few places you can get car charged at the moment but I'm sure they'll increase and the same with LPG, supply and demand!
Very few places you can charge? There are more public chargers in the UK than fuel stations and you can charge at home if you have off road parking.
M4CK 1 said:
Why has LPG not become popular??
I understand that people found it hard to justify the Extra money to install and loss of space in your car with the tank.
But as an environmentally friendly fuel I don't understand why its not being used.
I would quite happily have an everyday LPG car, as a hybrid it would make even more sense as I believe LPG can be quite high mpg.
I understand that people found it hard to justify the Extra money to install and loss of space in your car with the tank.
But as an environmentally friendly fuel I don't understand why its not being used.
I would quite happily have an everyday LPG car, as a hybrid it would make even more sense as I believe LPG can be quite high mpg.
It’s a non scaleable solution. In order to fuel a huge number of vehicles such as say 50% of the UK fleet you would require far more LPG than is produced from the distillation of oil.
We alsresdy distill approaching 40% of the oil demand primarily for gasoline and diesel production and LPG is a relatively minor byproduct of the process.
The purpose of offering limited incentives to convert to LPG was to create a modest commercial market that would use the LPG that is produced from current distillation. It was never about using more than that and as you can imagine, doing so would be hugely polluting as we would be increasing the amount of oil we need to distill to get this volatile fraction but also the cost of doing so would need to be reflected in the price. LPG is cheaper partly because of lower taxation but also because it is close to being a waste product in the manufacture of gasoline and diesel. As soon as you started making it specifically then it’s price would be much higher than that of gasoline as there is less of it in a barrel of crude and it is is more expensive to store and transport.
LPG was never intended as a transport solution but it was offered and incentivised as an alternative to solve the problem of commercialising a byproduct.
It does form part of the solution to an efficient fossil fuel society in the same way that EVs do. We currently distill an excess amount of crude to just meet our global vehicle needs. The environmental solution is to reduce the amount of Crude required by transport to match the level that is required by industry using all the other fractions. We can only achieve that efficient balance by incentivising a large enough percentage of gasoline and diesel consumers to switch to EV.
The provincial nature of LPG usage also meant that there was no profit for manufacturers to invest heavily in the required solutions as their potential markets were scattered and unstable and that generally meant localised, independent installers with relatively basic installation offerings.
What we have ended up with in these localised zones is small businesses who have invested in the limited future of LPG seeing EVs as a threat, as getting the money and customers they thought they should be getting and becoming, if PH is anything to go by, quite punchy and a customer base for whom LPG is the miracle that turns beer into champagne and allows them to run that big, thirsty car on a lower budget.
It’s an important little part of the present and the future as it makes the use of Crude more efficient. But it is not remotely scaleable whereas EVs can be scaled up to the point that they should bring down the consumption of Crude to the naturally efficient level. The importance obviously is that it does go too far and we end up with the in hindsight insanity before the invention of the motor car of the Naptha fractions being a waste product and burnt off!
EVs aren’t the most environmental way to drive the planet. Obviously, targeting size and weight are much bigger winners in that regard. But the modern EV solution has been adenpossible due to ICE vehicles being allowed to get bigger and heavier year on year for decades which has prevented the extreme efficiencies available from an ICE motor in contrast to history from being used to benefit society.
EVs are also big, heavy, wasteful and they aren’t as globally practical as ICE so total adoption is insanity, partly because it is not feasible but also because the solution to big heavy cars being used excessively does not lie with swapping them for big heavy cars that are used excessively.
But where EV’s are a win is in replacing the most polluting vehicles where plausible and using that gain to reduce the amount of global Crude that is distilled. Many people with big heavy cars have off street parking as a function of wealth and not all those consumers are needing to drive thousands of miles every day. Many people with off street parking also have more than one vehicle. Being able to incentivise these people to switch one of these vehicles to EV is very good. Add this group to those who don’t fit the practical criteria for an EV but wish to use one regardless and you start to get a group of car users that has the potential to grow to be a significant percentage of road users.
Once we’ve reached that point, for example, 50:50 EV/ICE then the next logical step is to finally tax weight and size so that both industries are rewarded for building smaller, lighter vehicles that consume fewer raw materials in their lifetime not just this temporary and flawed focus on the tailpipe.
The end solution is a blend of ICE and EV in smaller, lighter vehicles. A balance that sees much lower emissions, much lower consumption and the efficient use of Crude across all the reliant industries. LPG can’t be more than a small element in that formula.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Tuesday 22 October 08:58
jjwilde said:
SWoll said:
Out of interest have you ever driven one? I'm assuming not.
Very few places you can charge? There are more public chargers in the UK than fuel stations and you can charge at home if you have off road parking.
Of course he's not driven one! Very few places you can charge? There are more public chargers in the UK than fuel stations and you can charge at home if you have off road parking.
jjwilde said:
SWoll said:
Out of interest have you ever driven one? I'm assuming not.
Very few places you can charge? There are more public chargers in the UK than fuel stations and you can charge at home if you have off road parking.
Of course he's not driven one! Very few places you can charge? There are more public chargers in the UK than fuel stations and you can charge at home if you have off road parking.
I prefer the feel of a manual gearbox. Yes you can get Auto's which can change faster than me or you, probably smoother but where's the fun in that.
I don't want a car to drive me around and sadly that's all that's going to happen. The loss of ICE will be sad as it's EV is really the start of the demise of cars for me. By 2021 all cars will speed limit restricted, although it will be switchable how long before it's not. Might as well be autonomous at this point as your brain would've switched off at this point.
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