Metal Air batteries

[anonymous-user]

This guy was on the radio yesterday and has been on the telly previously

https://www.metalectrique.com/

A metal air battery that you can change in 90 seconds and will last for 1500 miles and will cost 8p per mile

I know no more than that yet.

[Frimley111R]

Bit more on it here. As suspected, it has some challenges (single use and charge degrades very quickly) but if they can get around this....

https://www.designnews.com/electronics-test/soluti...

[kambites]

There have been tens if not hundreds of experimental battery chemistries which have made claims like that and thus far none of them has actually proven to be viable for vehicle propulsion. Eventually something will prove a step change over the gradual evolution of Lithium Ion chemistry, but I think we're likely to see a lot more false starts before we find it.

In this case I think the fact that batteries can't be electrically recharged will make them non-viable for mass adoption in EVs.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 16th July 13:55

[jjwilde]

I prefer Teslas approach which is li-ion is good enough we just need to get the price down, which is happening really quick.

The new ModelS gets almost 400miles now & 7mins of charging adds 100 miles with the new superchargers, I don't think we need to go beyond that (or rather it's good enough for 99% of people).

Better to just keep getting the price down.

[gangzoom]

jjwilde said:

I prefer Teslas approach which is li-ion is good enough we just need to get the price down, which is happening really quick.

Don't be so ridiculous, EVs are much less threatening if we pretend they can only be viable if powered by imaginary technology.

An electric car with more range than a petrol one which you buy right now.....that is simply crazy talk, lets be sensible and stick to magical future battery tech talk instead .

[HalcyonRichard]

jjwilde said:

I prefer Teslas approach which is li-ion is good enough we just need to get the price down, which is happening really quick.

Elon Musk said he would consider any viable battery. He said he is approached all the time with new ideas. He just said bring in a better battery we will test and consider. Tesla have just taken over Maxwell who have super capacitor technology - rumour is this will be used for better regen.

Tesla will not stand still and will use any battery technology that is better. Aluminium is 1/10 of the cost of Lithium and more available. So "IF" they crack it and get it rechargeable EV's will be cheaper than ICE........ But do not hold your breath it's very difficult, rare and time consuming getting an idea from the lab into commercial production.

[kambites]

HalcyonRichard said:

Tesla will not stand still and will use any battery technology that is better. Aluminium is 1/10 of the cost of Lithium and more available. So "IF" they crack it and get it rechargeable EV's will be cheaper than ICE........ But do not hold your breath it's very difficult, rare and time consuming getting an idea from the lab into commercial production.

I'm not sure anyone is attempting to make it "rechargeable" as such? I think they're working on battery pack swaps with spent packs having their anodes replaced to make them reusable. There may be a small market for such a product, but I just can't see it becoming mainstream.

If they could get a realistic range of, say, 10000 miles it might be viable. Replacing your battery anodes would basically become part of your service schedule.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 16th July 16:48

[anonymous-user]

HalcyonRichard said:

Tesla have just taken over Maxwell who have super capacitor technology - rumour is this will be used for better regen.

er, that doesn't' stand much scrutiny really! The battery in the average Tesla can already support multiple hundred kW of power transfer, so how does a capacitor help (especially as because capacitors are charge storage devices, the voltage across it's electrodes is directly proportional to the charge stored on those electrodes, meaning a large voltage range must be accommodated in order to store significant energy).

So whilst a system that could support regeneration from a full emergency stop from high speed (ie tyres at max slip continuously as vehicle decels from same 80 mph to zero) could recover more energy than the systems currently used, that situation is both a rare abnormality and so far removed from "driving economically" as to render it irrelevant surely??

[HalcyonRichard]

kambites said:

I'm not sure anyone is attempting to make it "rechargeable" as such?

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 16th July 16:48

I read a linked article from the quoted article talking about aluminium replacing Lithium. But it does not implicitly state it is rechargeable.

https://www.designnews.com/electronics-test/can-al...

[HalcyonRichard]

Max_Torque said:

er, that doesn't' stand much scrutiny really! The battery in the average Tesla can already support multiple hundred kW of power transfer, so how does a capacitor help (especially as because capacitors are charge storage devices, the voltage across it's electrodes is directly proportional to the charge stored on those electrodes, meaning a large voltage range must be accommodated in order to store significant energy).

So whilst a system that could support regeneration from a full emergency stop from high speed (ie tyres at max slip continuously as vehicle decels from same 80 mph to zero) could recover more energy than the systems currently used, that situation is both a rare abnormality and so far removed from "driving economically" as to render it irrelevant surely??

The regen and high power in and out in short bursts can be a problem for some cars. In some instances larger battery packs are used to gain performance. The new Tesla Roadster has insane performance but has a 200 kWh battery - I think mainly to support high acceleration with high power output from the battery. Maxwell has one applcation of super capacitors used in buses to capture braking energy and use it for acceleration. A good article with quotes from the Maxwell boffins about some applications of super capacitors :-

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/power-hungry-t...

[GW65]

HalcyonRichard said:

Elon Musk said he would consider any viable battery. He said he is approached all the time with new ideas. He just said bring in a better battery we will test and consider. Tesla have just taken over Maxwell who have super capacitor technology - rumour is this will be used for better regen.

Tesla will not stand still and will use any battery technology that is better. Aluminium is 1/10 of the cost of Lithium and more available. So "IF" they crack it and get it rechargeable EV's will be cheaper than ICE........ But do not hold your breath it's very difficult, rare and time consuming getting an idea from the lab into commercial production.

The new kid on the block soon becomes the establishment. Just as traditional car manufacturers have invested huge amounts in ICE production and expertise so want to hang on as long as possible...so Tesla (through the Gigafactories) has invested huge amounts in li-ion battery technology and so wants to hang on as long as possible.... I'd put (my own money) on Tesla not being the firm to introduce the next big thing in batteries, it'll likely be a new entrant - maybe even one of the traditional car companies (several of whom are working on solid-state battery technology) as they finally make the big switch.

[bogmeister]

AGM Batteries in Thurso are already making sodium ion batteries on a pilot production line. Even at this stage they offer a 30% saving on cost over lithium and the amount of sodium available on earth is several orders of magnitude greater than lithium.

[donkmeister]

Metal-air (specifically zinc) batteries were available for mobile phones around 20 years ago, back when a lot of mobile phones could run on AA batteries, NiMH batteries were the thing to have and noone thought it a good idea to have non-replaceable batteries.
I seem to recall they gave immense standby time of a week or two.

[kambites]

bogmeister said:

AGM Batteries in Thurso are already making sodium ion batteries on a pilot production line. Even at this stage they offer a 30% saving on cost over lithium and the amount of sodium available on earth is several orders of magnitude greater than lithium.

They certainly look the primary candidate to replace Lithium Ion cells, but currently they're a long way behind on the development curve so it's too early to say whether they'll end up hitting some sort of road-block for mass production.

There's a few companies claiming they'll have 18650 Na-Ion cells in mass production as early as next year but with little detail in terms of their engineering applications - resistance to recharge cycles, heat output, charge/discharge rates, etc. are all still relatively unknown.