Are electric cars a gimmick?
Discussion
I have looked into buying an electric car and I have concluded they are a sales and marketing gimmick, they do not save the planet! According to the Guardian (quoting an EU gov. study) the average electric car is responsible for emitting 8.8 tonnes of CO2 during its production compared to 5.6 tonnes in a petrol car. That's just to make the car.
An average petrol car now produces 125g/km of CO2 and that includes the CO2 emitted getting the oil from the ground, refined and to the petrol station. An electric car uses 57g/km if the electricity used is an EU mix (part fossil fuel / nuclear / renewables) That rises to 91g/km if the electricity is 100% generated from fossil fuels.
If we compare EU mix, at 57g/km, to petrol, an electric car would need to travel 130,000 kms / 80,000 miles to recover the CO2 used in the production of it and its batteries. In the UK the average car travels 8,000 miles per year, That's 10 years to recoup the initial additional CO2 required to build an electric car. That's if you replace a perfectly good petrol car with an electric car. If you don't have a car and choose electric then that comes down to 4 years and it begins to look a bit more attractive.
However the average UK car owner changes car every 2 years! This is probably due to finance deals. This means the electric car will never be as environmentally kind to the environment as a petrol car as the batteries are usually kaput before 10 years anyway (look at the Nissan Leaf) so even in their life cycle they will only just manage to recoup their initial losses. Additionally the average age of a car in the UK is 8 years old.
I appreciate this is a transitional period and that in 20 years time hopefully most electricity will be renewable and the battery tech improved but I cant help thinking another fuel source would be better like hydrogen fuel cell. I don't know why battery tech is being pushed so hard when there is no real benefit other than the CO2 they emit is somewhere else and not on our doorstep so is not our problem......Typical Nimby attitude.....
An average petrol car now produces 125g/km of CO2 and that includes the CO2 emitted getting the oil from the ground, refined and to the petrol station. An electric car uses 57g/km if the electricity used is an EU mix (part fossil fuel / nuclear / renewables) That rises to 91g/km if the electricity is 100% generated from fossil fuels.
If we compare EU mix, at 57g/km, to petrol, an electric car would need to travel 130,000 kms / 80,000 miles to recover the CO2 used in the production of it and its batteries. In the UK the average car travels 8,000 miles per year, That's 10 years to recoup the initial additional CO2 required to build an electric car. That's if you replace a perfectly good petrol car with an electric car. If you don't have a car and choose electric then that comes down to 4 years and it begins to look a bit more attractive.
However the average UK car owner changes car every 2 years! This is probably due to finance deals. This means the electric car will never be as environmentally kind to the environment as a petrol car as the batteries are usually kaput before 10 years anyway (look at the Nissan Leaf) so even in their life cycle they will only just manage to recoup their initial losses. Additionally the average age of a car in the UK is 8 years old.
I appreciate this is a transitional period and that in 20 years time hopefully most electricity will be renewable and the battery tech improved but I cant help thinking another fuel source would be better like hydrogen fuel cell. I don't know why battery tech is being pushed so hard when there is no real benefit other than the CO2 they emit is somewhere else and not on our doorstep so is not our problem......Typical Nimby attitude.....
Edited by Bispal on Thursday 11th July 09:07
As a company car for short journey use they’re not a gimmick at all.
Very efficient.
The dust to dust emissions thing isn’t something we have considered, but I’m sure your calculations will be wrong, as otherwise why would the manufacturers even bother messing with batteries?
I thought a Jeep Wrangler had the best lifetime CO2 rating anyway?
Very efficient.
The dust to dust emissions thing isn’t something we have considered, but I’m sure your calculations will be wrong, as otherwise why would the manufacturers even bother messing with batteries?
I thought a Jeep Wrangler had the best lifetime CO2 rating anyway?
85Carrera said:
Bispal said:
I did, quite a lot, depends who you choose to believe.....
You’re not allowed to criticise EVs. If you do you’re derided as a Daily Mail reading luddite.Although, as you can see from the responses to date, the EV fanboys never actually address the arguments ...
Criticise away, it just appears you're assuming that the drivers of electric cars do so for environmental reasons.
Personally I just find the ease of use, driving experience and massive saving over petrol/diesel are enough to justify the change. Whether it's better or worse for the environment is a secondary concern as anyone with half a brain know's there is no magic bullet for this stuff.
I do imagine removing street level pollution from cars/buses in large cities would have significant health benefits for the residents though, thus saving the NHS a quite a few £?
The Union of Concerned Scientists:
"Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave (2015)
Since we first published our State of Charge report in 2012, the environmental benefits of electric vehicles (EVs) have continued to grow. Two-thirds of all Americans now live in areas where driving an EV produces fewer climate emissions than almost all comparable gasoline and gasoline hybrid cars—a fact attributable to more efficient EVs and an increasingly clean electricity grid.
But what are the global warming emissions of electric cars on a life cycle basis—from the manufacturing of the vehicle’s body and battery to its ultimate disposal and reuse? To answer this, the Union of Concerned Scientists undertook a comprehensive, two-year review of the climate emissions from vehicle production, operation, and disposal. We found that battery electric cars generate half the emissions of the average comparable gasoline car, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for."
https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/...
"Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave (2015)
Since we first published our State of Charge report in 2012, the environmental benefits of electric vehicles (EVs) have continued to grow. Two-thirds of all Americans now live in areas where driving an EV produces fewer climate emissions than almost all comparable gasoline and gasoline hybrid cars—a fact attributable to more efficient EVs and an increasingly clean electricity grid.
But what are the global warming emissions of electric cars on a life cycle basis—from the manufacturing of the vehicle’s body and battery to its ultimate disposal and reuse? To answer this, the Union of Concerned Scientists undertook a comprehensive, two-year review of the climate emissions from vehicle production, operation, and disposal. We found that battery electric cars generate half the emissions of the average comparable gasoline car, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for."
https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/...
Bispal said:
An average petrol car now produces 125g/km of CO2 and that includes the CO2 emitted getting the oil from the ground, refined and to the petrol station.
Genuinely interested - can you post a link to the source for this? It seems staggeringly low - I chose Audi at random, but the lowest grade A1 petrol has 126g/km emissions on WLTP. So an average of 125g/km inclusive of extraction seems difficult to comprehend.Then, from an enthusiasts perspective, you can more or less have all the performance you want from an EV, with little detriment to emissions (OK, faster EVs tend to be bigger, more weight, less efficiency, etc). I imagine the balance tips massively in an EVs favour if you look at like-for-like performance.
For typical use transport, for people with driveways, the arguments against EVs don't seem to make sense to me. Of course, there are plenty of exceptions where EVs are not suitable, and they are not a full and complete answer. But it seems to be heading in the right direction.
(Lets also not forget, they are not replacing anyones V12 running on downdraft Webbers - they are replacing 4-cyl diesels and eco-petrols, not exactly petrolhead dream engines in most cases)
There's no way the average ICE car manages 125g/km including extraction and refining. I'd be surprised if average tailpipe emissions alone were that low.
But no, EVs are not a magic bullet for removing the production of CO2. They are entirely reliant on the electricity (both to manufacture and fuel them) being created cleanly.
Most of the anti-EV studies are done on the USA's average energy mix which is mostly coal.
But no, EVs are not a magic bullet for removing the production of CO2. They are entirely reliant on the electricity (both to manufacture and fuel them) being created cleanly.
Most of the anti-EV studies are done on the USA's average energy mix which is mostly coal.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 11th July 10:21
kambites said:
There's no way the average ICE car manages 125g/km including extraction and refining. I'd be surprised if average tailpipe emissions alone were that low.
The EU average CO2 for cars sold in 2018 was 120g/km. Which is impressive. But there’s now way that refining petrol only adds 5g/km. https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehi...
MrTrilby said:
The EU average CO2 for cars sold in 2018 was 120g/km. Which is impressive. But there’s now way that refining petrol only adds 5g/km.
https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehi...
120g/km is 54.4 miles per gallon for a petrol car and 63.1mpg for a diesel. I wonder how many people are actually averaging those figures.https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehi...
MrTrilby said:
The EU average CO2 for cars sold in 2018 was 120g/km. Which is impressive. But there’s now way that refining petrol only adds 5g/km.
https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehi...
It is very impressive - I think that is NEDC, though, so pretty much a work of fiction in terms of actual emissions. Of course, I don't know how factual the EV 57g/km figure is - or whether they are comparable works of fiction.https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehi...
kambites said:
The average WLTP figures may be that low but the average actual emissions will be considerably higher. I'd guess around 150g/km.
I agree. But playing devil’s advocate, you can also argue that actual energy consumption by EVs will also be higher than their WLTP rating. I think the important thing is that the claimed 125g/km most definitely does not include the full life cycle emissions involved in producing the petrol/diesel.
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