Battery Leasing

[Frank Nicklin]

The Renault Zoe would suit my wife perfectly. She commutes short distances and drives less than 2000 miles per year. Her fuel costs are £35 a month and £20 a year road tax. Renault have a battery leasing arrangement which is a great idea for future potential battery failure but at £49 per month is more than my wifes current running costs. Where is the logic is that. No only are you paying a premium for the EV, but add the battery lease on top it doesn't add up.

The Zoe is not designed for long distance and ideal for city commutes and short out of town shopping trips. Its a non-starter if they can't compete with ICE in running costs.

[syl]

They can compete in running costs, but only if you bought the battery - which means they can't compete on purchase cost. Even with the £3,500 grant. The headline price of a Ferrari would be much less if you bought the car and leased the engine.

[Frank Nicklin]

Thats the problem, you cannot buy the battery as far as i'm aware, same with the Leaf.

Leasing the battery is a good idea especially with 2nd hand cars otherwise after 7 to 10 years your car is worthless if the battery needs replacing at a huge cost. Not a problem with ICE cars if well looked after, expected life of 10 years, 20 years or much more compared to an EV. No point in leasing if the overall cost is great than my current situation. The idea is to save money in running costs not add to it.

[syl]

In the long term, the battery won't need replacing, only a few cells. Or the value of the battery by trading it in to be recycled will be a significant percentage of the replacement. For now, they are new and you always pay a novelty premium. Even if the government pays part of it through grants, they have to collect the taxes to cover it somewhere, which means our pockets at the end of the day.

[HTP99]

If you are looking at an electric car for lower overall costs vs an ICE car then it won't work unless you intend on driving up to London regularly.

[MaxSo]

They can compare on running costs - but only with higher annual mileages...

2p per mile vs 10+p per mile needs more than 2k miles to overcome the higher purchase / lease costs...

Have a look at my spreadsheet...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARUrS7YaFM...

[jjwilde]

Frank Nicklin said:

Thats the problem, you cannot buy the battery as far as i'm aware, same with the Leaf.

Leasing the battery is a good idea especially with 2nd hand cars otherwise after 7 to 10 years your car is worthless if the battery needs replacing at a huge cost. Not a problem with ICE cars if well looked after, expected life of 10 years, 20 years or much more compared to an EV. No point in leasing if the overall cost is great than my current situation. The idea is to save money in running costs not add to it.

What? You can't lease a leaf battery and you absolutely can buy the Zoe with the battery.

Battery does not need replacing after 7 years at all, plenty of Teslas still on the road from 2009 with no issues, plenty of 2011 Leafs too.

Oh and I know you might just be trolling, but an EV does not need servicing, plugs, oil, exhaust, transmission etc. etc.

Oh and I know it sounds wild but you might just care for your local air quality IDK.

[sjg]

Leaf only had battery lease as an option for a short while, most are owned and Nissan gave dealers a way to buy out the battery so they could resell a used Flex (battery lease) car as owned.

Zoe started as lease only, but owned has been an option since 2015.

It’s not just “fuel” cost, it’s also an ongoing warranty on the battery and it includes breakdown cover (including if you get stuck with no charge). Plus it takes a big chunk off the purchase price.

[ChocolateFrog]

jjwilde said:

What? You can't lease a leaf battery and you absolutely can buy the Zoe with the battery.

Battery does not need replacing after 7 years at all, plenty of Teslas still on the road from 2009 with no issues, plenty of 2011 Leafs too.

Oh and I know you might just be trolling, but an EV does not need servicing, plugs, oil, exhaust, transmission etc. etc.

Oh and I know it sounds wild but you might just care for your local air quality IDK.

There are plenty of early leafs that have an almost useless range for anything other than local shops or nearby park and ride, particularly in winter.

I believe Tesla's perform better atleast in part because they have some proper battery management.

Or to put it another way. I could go further on £2.50 of petrol in my 20 year old car than an early leaf could go on a full charge.

[Frank Nicklin]

jjwilde said:

What? You can't lease a leaf battery and you absolutely can buy the Zoe with the battery.

Battery does not need replacing after 7 years at all, plenty of Teslas still on the road from 2009 with no issues, plenty of 2011 Leafs too.

Oh and I know you might just be trolling, but an EV does not need servicing, plugs, oil, exhaust, transmission etc. etc.

Oh and I know it sounds wild but you might just care for your local air quality IDK.

I'm not trolling at all. I'm serious about the practicality and running costs of an EV. Yes I agree there will be a mileage point at which an EV compares favourably to an ICE, but given the poor range of the current smaller EV's such as the Zoe, it is unlikely that these will do long distance hence the short commute suitability.

Replacing a car is a big commitment for us and we need to make the right choice. Much as I like the EV route, the costs do not add up, not forgetting the increased insurance premiums as well.

[Poppiecock]

ChocolateFrog said:

There are plenty of early leafs that have an almost useless range for anything other than local shops or nearby park and ride, particularly in winter.

I believe Tesla's perform better atleast in part because they have some proper battery management.

Or to put it another way. I could go further on £2.50 of petrol in my 20 year old car than an early leaf could go on a full charge.

You need one of these!

https://newatlas.com/ev-charging-trailer/28513/

And yes, they really do exist. One of the EU breakdown companies has a fleet of diesel Passats, towing petrol generators, to bail out those stupid enough to run out of charge. Which apparently happens very frequently.

[Frank Nicklin]

Poppiecock said:

You need one of these!

https://newatlas.com/ev-charging-trailer/28513/

And yes, they really do exist. One of the EU breakdown companies has a fleet of diesel Passats, towing petrol generators, to bail out those stupid enough to run out of charge. Which apparently happens very frequently.

Ha, brilliant reminds me of the spoof mobiles phone ads back in the 80's. Nice little phones, but you needed a battery in a backpack to make it work.

Regarding the EV charger trailer, you would be limited to the inside and middle lanes on the motorway, parking would be a nightmare. This is something that just does not need inventing.

Edited by Frank Nicklin on Wednesday 10th July 13:30

[MaxSo]

Frank Nicklin said:

I'm not trolling at all. I'm serious about the practicality and running costs of an EV. Yes I agree there will be a mileage point at which an EV compares favourably to an ICE, but given the poor range of the current smaller EV's such as the Zoe, it is unlikely that these will do long distance hence the short commute suitability.

Replacing a car is a big commitment for us and we need to make the right choice. Much as I like the EV route, the costs do not add up, not forgetting the increased insurance premiums as well.

The current Zoe has a range of about 150 miles on longer journey at higher speeds. This is similar to the current BMW i3 in which I've done 3k miles in 2 months.

That amount of range is more than enough to do way beyond the average UK mileage.

Have a look at www.evezy.co.uk - you can try an EV for 1 month, and if you don't like it, just give it back. Insurance is included.

Calculate the cost of different options using this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARUrS7YaFM...

[Knock_knock]

ChocolateFrog said:

There are plenty of early leafs that have an almost useless range for anything other than local shops or nearby park and ride, particularly in winter.

My Leaf 30 is now three years old and just ticked over 37,000 miles. According to LeafSpy it has lost 6.8% of battery capacity. At the moment you can't tell in the real world that there's any loss.

The loss rate seems to have slowed down too, so I'm expecting to see about 13% loss by 100,000 miles at the eight year point which is it's planned life for me.

[Frank Nicklin]

MaxSo said:

The current Zoe has a range of about 150 miles on longer journey at higher speeds. This is similar to the current BMW i3 in which I've done 3k miles in 2 months.

That amount of range is more than enough to do way beyond the average UK mileage.

Have a look at www.evezy.co.uk - you can try an EV for 1 month, and if you don't like it, just give it back. Insurance is included.

Calculate the cost of different options using this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARUrS7YaFM...

What you say is true, but the battery is the biggest issue. Leasing is favourable if you do long distances, but not for short commutes as it is more expensive than filling up with petrol, yet not leasing a battery leaves you with a dwindling power source that will be reflected in the residual value come the time to sell. There are plenty on old Nissan Leafs out there with crappy range because the batteries are on the way out, loosing roughly 20% capacity over 5 years. A new battery is currently around £5000 for a car worth not much more, where are the economics that support that. Even refactored batteries will be around £3500.

Edited by Frank Nicklin on Wednesday 10th July 14:20

Edited by Frank Nicklin on Wednesday 10th July 14:23

[Frank Nicklin]

Knock_knock said:

My Leaf 30 is now three years old and just ticked over 37,000 miles. According to LeafSpy it has lost 6.8% of battery capacity. At the moment you can't tell in the real world that there's any loss.

The loss rate seems to have slowed down too, so I'm expecting to see about 13% loss by 100,000 miles at the eight year point which is it's planned life for me.

You might be in for a shock

https://insideevs.com/news/337372/nissan-leaf-30-k...

[MaxSo]

Frank Nicklin said:

What you say is true, but the battery is the biggest issue. Leasing is favourable if you do long distances, but not for short commutes as it is more expensive than filling up with petrol, yet not leasing a battery leaves you with a dwindling power source that will be reflected in the residual value come the time to sell. There are plenty on old Nissan Leafs out there with crappy range because the batteries are on the way out, loosing roughly 20% capacity over 5 years. A new battery is currently around £5000 for a car worth less than that, where are the economics that support that. Even refactored batteries will be around £3500.

Edited by Frank Nicklin on Wednesday 10th July 14:20

Leasing is more favourable if you do longer distances for ICE cars too though. Any new car, bought of leased to then only drive 2k miles in isn't the most efficient use of resource IMO.

I would just ignore Leafs, especially old ones. They are old tech that have never had proper thermal battery management. The same is not the case for other EVs.

[Frank Nicklin]

MaxSo said:

Leasing is more favourable if you do longer distances for ICE cars too though. Any new car, bought of leased to then only drive 2k miles in isn't the most efficient use of resource IMO.

I would just ignore Leafs, especially old ones. They are old tech that have never had proper thermal battery management. The same is not the case for other EVs.

I disagree. Most leasing agreements limit you to 10K per year with excess mileage above that. I do 18K a year, its my own car, not a company car. I've yet to find a leasing agreement that will be more cost effective.

[MaxSo]

Frank Nicklin said:

MaxSo said:

Leasing is more favourable if you do longer distances for ICE cars too though. Any new car, bought of leased to then only drive 2k miles in isn't the most efficient use of resource IMO.

I would just ignore Leafs, especially old ones. They are old tech that have never had proper thermal battery management. The same is not the case for other EVs.

I disagree. Most leasing agreements limit you to 10K per year with excess mileage above that. I do 18K a year, its my own car, not a company car. I've yet to find a leasing agreement that will be more cost effective.

Nevermind - you are totally misinterpreting what I'm saying. Enjoy the ICE car.

[feef]

MaxSo said:

Frank Nicklin said:

What you say is true, but the battery is the biggest issue. Leasing is favourable if you do long distances, but not for short commutes as it is more expensive than filling up with petrol, yet not leasing a battery leaves you with a dwindling power source that will be reflected in the residual value come the time to sell. There are plenty on old Nissan Leafs out there with crappy range because the batteries are on the way out, loosing roughly 20% capacity over 5 years. A new battery is currently around £5000 for a car worth less than that, where are the economics that support that. Even refactored batteries will be around £3500.

Edited by Frank Nicklin on Wednesday 10th July 14:20

Leasing is more favourable if you do longer distances for ICE cars too though. Any new car, bought of leased to then only drive 2k miles in isn't the most efficient use of resource IMO.

I would just ignore Leafs, especially old ones. They are old tech that have never had proper thermal battery management. The same is not the case for other EVs.

I'm with Frank. I do 20k a year and I've yet to see a lease deal that would be favourable to purchase regardless of whether it's a bought EV with leased battery, EV leased with battery included or leased ICE car.

If we're misinterpreting what you say then sorry, but can you clarify?