EV's and cumbersome charging leads...
Discussion
Is there a good reason that all EV's just seem to have their charging cables loose in the car boot.
Is it because:
- it costs too much to integrate them on to a reel inside the car (think vacuum cleaner retractable lead/plug)?
- the above takes up too much space?
- of some sort of safety law?
- Does it need to be this way for it to qualify as an EV?
- some other law/regulation/reason?
It strikes me it would be much easier to open the flap, pull off the reel, plugin, reverse procedure and close flap.
Just confused!
Is it because:
- it costs too much to integrate them on to a reel inside the car (think vacuum cleaner retractable lead/plug)?
- the above takes up too much space?
- of some sort of safety law?
- Does it need to be this way for it to qualify as an EV?
- some other law/regulation/reason?
It strikes me it would be much easier to open the flap, pull off the reel, plugin, reverse procedure and close flap.
Just confused!
Why a lead, why not wireless charging, drive over a pad. Good for a long slow charge?
Or replaceable batteries, universal, so you drive into a service station, pay a charge and have the battery pack swapped out in minutes to continue your journey.
It's probably all down to space and weight...
Or replaceable batteries, universal, so you drive into a service station, pay a charge and have the battery pack swapped out in minutes to continue your journey.
It's probably all down to space and weight...
Byker28i said:
Why a lead, why not wireless charging, drive over a pad. Good for a long slow charge?
Or replaceable batteries, universal, so you drive into a service station, pay a charge and have the battery pack swapped out in minutes to continue your journey.
It's probably all down to space and weight...
Not sure about the leads issue, but you can have battery swap - it takes 2 minutes 56 seconds (at the last count) for our cars in China (blatant plug!!!).Or replaceable batteries, universal, so you drive into a service station, pay a charge and have the battery pack swapped out in minutes to continue your journey.
It's probably all down to space and weight...
But a lot is down to compromise, often around cost.
Cheers
Rob
Robscim said:
Not sure about the leads issue, but you can have battery swap - it takes 2 minutes 56 seconds (at the last count) for our cars in China (blatant plug!!!).
But a lot is down to compromise, often around cost.
Cheers
Rob
I remember reading Tesla were trialling the same sort of thing. Drive into a battery station, the battery you have used is replaced by a new/charged battery and you carry on (all faster than filling the car with fuel). You pay for the battery lease I think...But a lot is down to compromise, often around cost.
Cheers
Rob
I read yesterday that petrol/diesel car production all-time peaked in 2018 and it will now JUST decrease!
four main reasons:
1) cost - charging cables are expensive
2) Multiple standards of charger (ie most people don't have a DC fast charger at home)
3) Length - how long do we make the cable?
4) Practicality - where do you store a 5m long cable in a passenger car? The "drum" necessary to house that cable, make it easy to deploy (and retract) and to pass things like snow packing / water ingress etc is actually really difficult.
Most EVSE chargers include a cable "tidy" of some description
Far better to have the cable as part of the charger system.
1) cost - charging cables are expensive
2) Multiple standards of charger (ie most people don't have a DC fast charger at home)
3) Length - how long do we make the cable?
4) Practicality - where do you store a 5m long cable in a passenger car? The "drum" necessary to house that cable, make it easy to deploy (and retract) and to pass things like snow packing / water ingress etc is actually really difficult.
Most EVSE chargers include a cable "tidy" of some description
Far better to have the cable as part of the charger system.
Zetec-S said:
I'm guessing a "loose" rather than integrated cable makes it easier to replace if it were to be damaged?
No idea. There has to be a fiscal reason for it; this would be my best guess.My mate has a Tesla and he drives into his driveway, exits the car, walks past power point, opens boot, takes out (untangles charging cable), walks back to plug the cable in at both ends.
how simple would it be to exit the car, pull the cable from the reel, plug in?!!
I don't get it; it just seems overly complicated and unnecessary to have it loose in the boot.
Tesla Superchargers and home wall mount chargers have the cable built into the charger - you just pop the port open and plug them in.
The loose cables we have are three pin (pretty useless except in an emergency when you have a few days spare) and adaptors for some other fitments, neither of which have ever been used.
The wires are for exception usage, not day to day use.
The loose cables we have are three pin (pretty useless except in an emergency when you have a few days spare) and adaptors for some other fitments, neither of which have ever been used.
The wires are for exception usage, not day to day use.
You're not supposed to use an extension cable when it's on the reel. It's fine for a few minutes (such as using a vacuum cleaner with the cable not fully extended) but not for delivering 32A to a car over several hours. You can get heat building up enough to melt the insulation and short out.
The cables supplied with EVs are usually a 3-pin / 13A "granny" charger (for emergencies, or topping up when you're staying up away from home), and one that has a type 2 connector at the non-car end, for delivering 16 or 32A at public charging points - the slower sort where you'd leave the car parked up for a while, rather than the rapid chargers. Both leads are really intended to be kept tucked away until the odd time when you might need them, not for everyday use - usually they come in neat little bags or have a storage place under the boot floor.
Most people (those with any sense at least) use a home charger with the lead tethered - you just pull up, grab the plug (maybe unlooping the cable as you go) and put it in the car. Takes all of 5 seconds.
The cables supplied with EVs are usually a 3-pin / 13A "granny" charger (for emergencies, or topping up when you're staying up away from home), and one that has a type 2 connector at the non-car end, for delivering 16 or 32A at public charging points - the slower sort where you'd leave the car parked up for a while, rather than the rapid chargers. Both leads are really intended to be kept tucked away until the odd time when you might need them, not for everyday use - usually they come in neat little bags or have a storage place under the boot floor.
Most people (those with any sense at least) use a home charger with the lead tethered - you just pull up, grab the plug (maybe unlooping the cable as you go) and put it in the car. Takes all of 5 seconds.
Byker28i said:
Or replaceable batteries, universal, so you drive into a service station, pay a charge and have the battery pack swapped out in minutes to continue your journey.
When asked about EV's this is what I always say it needs to be before it hits the mainstream.That said, the problem comes in when you have varying levels of performance/charge stored in batteries of different ages. E.g. I get 250 miles from one battery because it's performing at 80% of its original charge. Next battery I get from a service station could either be loads better or much worse.
Mitigated with disclaimers and a process taking duff batteries out of circulation but still something that would need consideration. Could even price them relative to their performance ie if you want one that is almost brand new and can go for further and/or faster etc then you can pay a bit extra etc.
GhostWKD said:
When asked about EV's this is what I always say it needs to be before it hits the mainstream.
That said, the problem comes in when you have varying levels of performance/charge stored in batteries of different ages. E.g. I get 250 miles from one battery because it's performing at 80% of its original charge. Next battery I get from a service station could either be loads better or much worse.
Mitigated with disclaimers and a process taking duff batteries out of circulation but still something that would need consideration. Could even price them relative to their performance ie if you want one that is almost brand new and can go for further and/or faster etc then you can pay a bit extra etc.
It's probably a result of the "each to their own" thing i.e. car manufacturers not building to a standard, in terms of batteries, or the ease (or serious lack of) of replacing the batteries. Then, the "details" would need to be worked out, like who pays for the extra battery stock that is always on charge, who pays for the battery replacements when they fail, etc etc. But these are far from insurmountable obstacles.That said, the problem comes in when you have varying levels of performance/charge stored in batteries of different ages. E.g. I get 250 miles from one battery because it's performing at 80% of its original charge. Next battery I get from a service station could either be loads better or much worse.
Mitigated with disclaimers and a process taking duff batteries out of circulation but still something that would need consideration. Could even price them relative to their performance ie if you want one that is almost brand new and can go for further and/or faster etc then you can pay a bit extra etc.
Having said that, I read about research on better "flow" batteries, where the charge is in the liquid rather than the plates, so you might one day just drive up to a fuelling station, have your discharged battery fluid drained, and new charged fluid pumped in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery
GhostWKD said:
Byker28i said:
Or replaceable batteries, universal, so you drive into a service station, pay a charge and have the battery pack swapped out in minutes to continue your journey.
When asked about EV's this is what I always say it needs to be before it hits the mainstream.That said, the problem comes in when you have varying levels of performance/charge stored in batteries of different ages. E.g. I get 250 miles from one battery because it's performing at 80% of its original charge. Next battery I get from a service station could either be loads better or much worse.
Mitigated with disclaimers and a process taking duff batteries out of circulation but still something that would need consideration. Could even price them relative to their performance ie if you want one that is almost brand new and can go for further and/or faster etc then you can pay a bit extra etc.
Manufacturers don't even fit common batteries across their own cars.
Our new charging point will go in the garage. £100 extra for a tethered charging point so I'll just leave the Kia cable plugged in all the time, looped under the garage door and hooked over the gutter downpipe, same as we do with the 13A plug-in 'granny/brick' charger.
Building the cable into the car - not for me - have you seen the clout the hoover gets when the plug is retracted
Building the cable into the car - not for me - have you seen the clout the hoover gets when the plug is retracted
I'm not convinced about the flow battery concept. I get that some people are keen to replicate the experience of filling up at a petrol station, but it's unnecessary when you have 350kW charging, home charging, vehicle-to-grid, and solid state batteries just on the horizon.
It has exactly the same problems of transportation and storage as fossil fuels and hydrogen. What are the advantages, other than replicating the filling station experience?
It has exactly the same problems of transportation and storage as fossil fuels and hydrogen. What are the advantages, other than replicating the filling station experience?
GhostWKD said:
When asked about EV's this is what I always say it needs to be before it hits the mainstream.
It really isn’t. If your current car magically filled the tank enough to give you 200+ miles of range overnight, how many petrol station visits would you make in a year? How many if every time you stopped at a services to use the facilities or get a coffee or some lunch your car magically got 100+ more miles? Cars spend the vast majority of their lives not moving and close to electrified infrastructure. Charging batteries makes infinitely more sense than trying to swap them.
People always nonchalantly say "oh, you just swap the battery" OK, then you try it.
The reason you won't see battery swapping for passenger cars is that is simple too costly, and has such a massive impact on numerous systems, that it really isn't viable. Things like the HV interconnects, the Isometry, the BMS, the contactor and pyrotechnic fusing, not to mention the battery cooling loops, pumps and sensors, make a "swap" much harder than putting a battery in your laptop. Not to mention the fact it must be machined handled (>300kg typically) and the fact that the battery is the core of the EV structure (for crash safety reasons) so just removing it is hard. Take a look at how many bolts are used to fit a typical battery to the chassis for example:
For a "quick fit" system you need to come up with a simple, robust, cheap and standardised "quick connect" system to physically retain a 300kg battery in a 100g crash. Good luck with that! (it's not impossible, but it is non-viable!)
The reason you won't see battery swapping for passenger cars is that is simple too costly, and has such a massive impact on numerous systems, that it really isn't viable. Things like the HV interconnects, the Isometry, the BMS, the contactor and pyrotechnic fusing, not to mention the battery cooling loops, pumps and sensors, make a "swap" much harder than putting a battery in your laptop. Not to mention the fact it must be machined handled (>300kg typically) and the fact that the battery is the core of the EV structure (for crash safety reasons) so just removing it is hard. Take a look at how many bolts are used to fit a typical battery to the chassis for example:
For a "quick fit" system you need to come up with a simple, robust, cheap and standardised "quick connect" system to physically retain a 300kg battery in a 100g crash. Good luck with that! (it's not impossible, but it is non-viable!)
- it costs too much to integrate them on to a reel inside the car (think vacuum cleaner retractable lead/plug)?
How long does your vacuum cleaner reel last? typically its the first thing that fails has to be stored somewhere too.
- the above takes up too much space?
yes
- of some sort of safety law?
no
- Does it need to be this way for it to qualify as an EV?
no
- some other law/regulation/reason?
no
You could make an integrated charge cable but for many reasons its not worth it.
For most Evs going forward you wont need one (most of the time).
Your home charger will have a cable built in (or perhaps removable but left plugged in)
Fast chargers have cables built in.
The only time you ever need a cable in the boot is for low speed DC charging, which is often free. Which cable you need depends on the charge port on your car, which is why most DC chargers have just a type 2 port and leave the rest to the user.
How long does your vacuum cleaner reel last? typically its the first thing that fails has to be stored somewhere too.
- the above takes up too much space?
yes
- of some sort of safety law?
no
- Does it need to be this way for it to qualify as an EV?
no
- some other law/regulation/reason?
no
You could make an integrated charge cable but for many reasons its not worth it.
For most Evs going forward you wont need one (most of the time).
Your home charger will have a cable built in (or perhaps removable but left plugged in)
Fast chargers have cables built in.
The only time you ever need a cable in the boot is for low speed DC charging, which is often free. Which cable you need depends on the charge port on your car, which is why most DC chargers have just a type 2 port and leave the rest to the user.
Max_Torque said:
People always nonchalantly say "oh, you just swap the battery" OK, then you try it.
Robscim is referring to this: https://youtu.be/oTXptUuKGrcHe ought to know, I believe he works for Nio, and they have had it available and working in in China since last May!
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