What are we going to use after petrol and Diesels are gone
Discussion
I'm glad to say I'll be long gone when all this current green hysteria, anti-car, anti-driver, anti-fossil fuel mentality becomes the only option to go about daily business and enjoyment.
But for the next 20 years or so I'd say internal combustion engines will be available new (even if they have to be tied to a silly hybrid system), and then for the following 30 years or so they'll be available 2nd hand.
So the question is more for the new generations being born today.... I think they're doomed in to electric powered autonomous taxi milk floats that will turn up on the press of an app button.
They'll then roboticly take their seat, roboticly sit there as the world slowly passes the window, then robotic shoot themselves through sheer boredom as everything about their lives involves little to no manual interaction with anything.
The fuel for the future is basically going to be whatever governments allow - so hard to predict. It will come down to public pressure to push it one way or the other. So batteries, nuclear?.... or new tech to be developed in the next 30 years or so.
Just a shame that environmentalists have such a high influence over current governments - because oil derivatives could have had a long future and could have become very efficient. IMO the problem is population numbers not fossil fuels.
But for the next 20 years or so I'd say internal combustion engines will be available new (even if they have to be tied to a silly hybrid system), and then for the following 30 years or so they'll be available 2nd hand.
So the question is more for the new generations being born today.... I think they're doomed in to electric powered autonomous taxi milk floats that will turn up on the press of an app button.
They'll then roboticly take their seat, roboticly sit there as the world slowly passes the window, then robotic shoot themselves through sheer boredom as everything about their lives involves little to no manual interaction with anything.
The fuel for the future is basically going to be whatever governments allow - so hard to predict. It will come down to public pressure to push it one way or the other. So batteries, nuclear?.... or new tech to be developed in the next 30 years or so.
Just a shame that environmentalists have such a high influence over current governments - because oil derivatives could have had a long future and could have become very efficient. IMO the problem is population numbers not fossil fuels.
Edited by Atomic12C on Sunday 14th October 13:50
Electric cars will be just as much fun to fiddle with as the ICE cars. Granted, a lot of it will be in software (and breaking manufacturer controls), but there will be a fair amount of high current electronics to mess with as well. People will be doing things like shoving Tesla engines in a Leaf - it will have a range of about 30 miles, but if your commute is less than that, then smoke those tyres the whole way.
The real question for me is when petrol stations will become scarce - that will be the tipping point that makes an ICE car more of a PITA than the hassles of charging an electric one.
The real question for me is when petrol stations will become scarce - that will be the tipping point that makes an ICE car more of a PITA than the hassles of charging an electric one.
REALIST123 said:
Why would alcohol be used? It still produces CO2 and unless burned optimally, lots of nasties too.
Cars will eventually all be EVs, but not as soon as some think and not as long as others think.
How’s that for a hedge?
Alcohol doesn’t involve extracting from finite resources, and I’m sure it’s a shoe in for a tax. A cynic may actually think that the wording of legislation may prohibit just petrol and Diesel engine production, leaving the door open for a nice taxable fuel like alcohol to take its place.Cars will eventually all be EVs, but not as soon as some think and not as long as others think.
How’s that for a hedge?
Atomic12C said:
So the question is more for the new generations being born today.... I think they're doomed in to electric powered autonomous taxi milk floats that will turn up on the press of an app button.
They'll then roboticly take their seat, roboticly sit there as the world slowly passes the window, then robotic shoot themselves through sheer boredom as everything about their lives involves little to no manual interaction with anything.
As opposed to today, where drivers sit in stationary cars, in a huge queue, going nowhere but polluting massively. Take a look around you at the other drivers in your jam you are sitting in, see any smiling happy faces? no? thought not!They'll then roboticly take their seat, roboticly sit there as the world slowly passes the window, then robotic shoot themselves through sheer boredom as everything about their lives involves little to no manual interaction with anything.
with our rose tinted glasses we imagine all our car journeys to be like this:
The reality, is that for the majority, they are like this:
The next generation will not be wedded, or even welded, to their cars like our generation. Their personal freedoms, their "empty roads" will be different. In all likely hood, and hopefully imo, the physical act of having to commute to your place of work will be replaced with electronic coms for a vast majority. And the time that frees up will be used for leisure and more time to do whatever it is they personally enjoy. Today, we are tied to our cars like a ship to it's anchor, we feel cannot do without them, we cannot see any alternative. That, imo, is a temporary situation, and the pressures of human population growth make it only a matter of time before it is forced to change.........
I’m already at the point where I don’t use my car for commuting, whenever I can. I use it for fun only. It’s a repeat of the scenario when horses went from being the way to get about, to mostly just for fun / leisure. I’m definitely not some sort of hippy / anti car warrior, quite the opposite, but I think it’s inevitable that ( at least from a fuelling point of view) that the ‘cars for leisure / fun’ is coming.
They might be banned from 2040 but I bet a lot of manufactures will stop producing them well before that - I reckon around 2030 (yikes just realised that's only 11 years away!).
I mean who is going to buy a car in 2030 which is going to be depreciating like a stone leading up to 2040.
Haven't Volvo stopped making diesel cars already? With petrol to follow in 2023? I know Volvo aren't huge in comparison to Ford etc, but once a big brand goes purely electric they'll all follow quickly.
Back on topic - it's going to be 95% electric.
I mean who is going to buy a car in 2030 which is going to be depreciating like a stone leading up to 2040.
Haven't Volvo stopped making diesel cars already? With petrol to follow in 2023? I know Volvo aren't huge in comparison to Ford etc, but once a big brand goes purely electric they'll all follow quickly.
Back on topic - it's going to be 95% electric.
REALIST123 said:
Why would alcohol be used? It still produces CO2 and unless burned optimally, lots of nasties too.
Cars will eventually all be EVs, but not as soon as some think and not as long as others think.
How’s that for a hedge?
No aggregate co2 is released when burning biofuels and I don't know about ethanol but biodiesels are cleaner, ironically its the emission control complexity of modern diesel engines that prevent chucking in plant processed oils rather than fossil fuel.Cars will eventually all be EVs, but not as soon as some think and not as long as others think.
How’s that for a hedge?
Although, as they're currently razing rainforest to plant biofuel crops so people in Britain can be told they're helping the environment, the answer doesn't necessarily lie here.
Both power generation capacity and more importantly local distribution won't support everyone getting home and plugging their car in so we arent all going to be in battery cars any time soon
rxe said:
The real question for me is when petrol stations will become scarce - that will be the tipping point that makes an ICE car more of a PITA than the hassles of charging an electric one.
Will they ever, though? I mean, some still do 4 star.We'll always have a requirement for a service station, especially if electric cars get faster charging, and even more so if the trends allows PHEV with ICE generators
Don't think it will be electric.
Wife has a GTE and it marvellous but the faff to just upgrade our domestic supply was a Herculean effort. Three seperate companies involved.
There is just no way every household is going to be able to do this by 2040.
It's going to have to be something else, maybe hydrogen.
Electric feels like a stop gap
Wife has a GTE and it marvellous but the faff to just upgrade our domestic supply was a Herculean effort. Three seperate companies involved.
There is just no way every household is going to be able to do this by 2040.
It's going to have to be something else, maybe hydrogen.
Electric feels like a stop gap
cj2013 said:
Will they ever, though? I mean, some still do 4 star.
We'll always have a requirement for a service station, especially if electric cars get faster charging, and even more so if the trends allows PHEV with ICE generators
Finding 4 star is a bit of an effort. I wouldn’t want to do it on a daily driver!We'll always have a requirement for a service station, especially if electric cars get faster charging, and even more so if the trends allows PHEV with ICE generators
At the moment I can hop in the car and drive 600 miles (assuming it is full-ish), and be utterly confident that I can find a petrol station in the last 50 miles. What happens when demand drops? Selling petrol will become a bit of a niche activity. Once it is harder to find petrol, then it becomes a pain to run a petrol car. Rather than passing a convenient station, you’ve got to actively find one.
It’s a long way off, but that will be the tipping point. In an all electric world, can you imagine the shambles that the charger at the end of the M5 on bank holiday Friday will look like?
GOATever said:
REALIST123 said:
Why would alcohol be used? It still produces CO2 and unless burned optimally, lots of nasties too.
Cars will eventually all be EVs, but not as soon as some think and not as long as others think.
How’s that for a hedge?
Alcohol doesn’t involve extracting from finite resources, and I’m sure it’s a shoe in for a tax. A cynic may actually think that the wording of legislation may prohibit just petrol and Diesel engine production, leaving the door open for a nice taxable fuel like alcohol to take its place.Cars will eventually all be EVs, but not as soon as some think and not as long as others think.
How’s that for a hedge?
To quote from the Governments "Road to Zero" strategy announcement:
As set out in the government’s Air quality plan, the UK will end the sale of new conventional petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2040.
The government has no plan to ban any particular technology - like hybrids - as part of this strategy.
The strategy sets out ambition for at least 50% — and as many as 70% — of new car sales to be ultra low emission by 2030, alongside up to 40% of new vans.
We will end the sale of new conventional petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2040. By then, we expect the majority of new cars and vans sold to be 100% zero emission and all new cars and vans to have significant zero emission capability.
By 2050 we want almost every car and van to be zero emission.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-laun...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
As set out in the government’s Air quality plan, the UK will end the sale of new conventional petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2040.
The government has no plan to ban any particular technology - like hybrids - as part of this strategy.
The strategy sets out ambition for at least 50% — and as many as 70% — of new car sales to be ultra low emission by 2030, alongside up to 40% of new vans.
We will end the sale of new conventional petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2040. By then, we expect the majority of new cars and vans sold to be 100% zero emission and all new cars and vans to have significant zero emission capability.
By 2050 we want almost every car and van to be zero emission.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-laun...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Welcome to your google pod..
It's the inexorable march of progress i'm afraid.
Inevitably in time we will all be in faceless soulless electric Google pods or the Amazon/Facebook equivalent. You call one up on your phone app when needed, and it whisks you in bored apathy to Tesco's or some other unremarkable destination, whilst debiting your account to the tune of 99p a mile and giving Mr Zuckerberg or whatever he is called an extra few billion. .. . Personalised adverts will be streamed to the opaque full surround pod interior giving you no respite from the soul sucking commercialisation and monetisation of your existence.
It might not be in my lifetime, but if you are under 40 it might well be in yours. In a couple of generations we will wonder what all the fuss with privately owned cars was about.
Every species or invention be it a spiny anteater, cathode ray television or a Ford Focus has its day.
Once it's habitat/road food/petrol has disappeared it becomes extinct. Something better, more efficient, or cheaper comes along and it's sayonara to the old poorly built polluting non recyclable rubbish we had before...
Humans are such a dangerous random factor in driving that they will soon be priced off the road by crippling insurance as the autonomous vehicles share increases.
Governments will legislate to promote them, and insurance companies will hike up human driver prices to stratospheric levels for the diehards and classic car owners who refuse to go down without a fight. You haven't seen anything yet, so lube up that 3 bearing crankshaft and bend over.
Telematics (the black box in the car that watches your every move) will shortly be compulsory for Mr & Mrs Average (even if driven by pricing alone) banging another nail into the petrolhead coffin. Insurance with telematics £250, without £2500. 5 seconds of spirited driving or harsh braking (someone pulling out in front of you) will mean Insurance cancelled or £1000 extra premium thank you very much. It won't be our finest hour according to the Churchill Insurance dog, but it will be the beginning of the end of our independence and privacy. You won't be able to go anywhere in a car/pod without it being recorded in minute easily searchable web stalking detail. .
Classics cars will live on silently in dull museums on old British car plant brownfield sites, frequented mainly by men over 40, with collars turned up shuffling embarrassingly amongst the exhibits as if they were in a 1970's high street porn shop.
Some cars will be trailered to track days or shows by the obstinate and wealthy for the last twichings of the dying corpse of being a petrolhead.
Petrol will again revert to being something you can only buy at the chemists for £50 a litre in brown paper bags to hide your socially unacceptable addiction to 20w/50 oil fumes and mechanical crapness. Our 120 year old love affair with the car as we know it will be over even before the fat lady sings..
The oil industry will contract to pre internal combustion levels as petrol and plastics feel the might of Mumsnet, social networking and Google, there won't be a petrol station or cling film wrapped bio-engineered apple on a polystyrene tray in all the land..
Welcome to the second half of the 21st century, it's just around the corner, like your Google pod which will be with you in 2 minutes according to the App.
'Thank you for your holding, your journey is important to us (our bottom line). Unfortunately we are experiencing high customer demand for pods today. You are number 1,984 in the queue. Why not miss that hospital chemotherapy appointment and rebook your journey for a later time.
Please hold to be taken back to the middle ages and a 1974 Austin Allegro will be dispatched to convey you to your destination in no safety or comfort whatsoever. Please note journeys in an Austin Allegro are not guaranteed to be completed.
Your statutory rights and entitlements will be completely usurped and walked over by our policies.
Press # Hash to see what a mess the government is making of the transport system.
Press 1 to listen to a patronising message from our glorious leader and chief sponsor Elon Musk..
Press 2 to sink back into self loathing and depression about not doing anything to stop the tide of 'progress' and sweeping away of privacy twenty years ago.
Thank you for choosing to travel with FacePod today.. '
It's the inexorable march of progress i'm afraid.
Inevitably in time we will all be in faceless soulless electric Google pods or the Amazon/Facebook equivalent. You call one up on your phone app when needed, and it whisks you in bored apathy to Tesco's or some other unremarkable destination, whilst debiting your account to the tune of 99p a mile and giving Mr Zuckerberg or whatever he is called an extra few billion. .. . Personalised adverts will be streamed to the opaque full surround pod interior giving you no respite from the soul sucking commercialisation and monetisation of your existence.
It might not be in my lifetime, but if you are under 40 it might well be in yours. In a couple of generations we will wonder what all the fuss with privately owned cars was about.
Every species or invention be it a spiny anteater, cathode ray television or a Ford Focus has its day.
Once it's habitat/road food/petrol has disappeared it becomes extinct. Something better, more efficient, or cheaper comes along and it's sayonara to the old poorly built polluting non recyclable rubbish we had before...
Humans are such a dangerous random factor in driving that they will soon be priced off the road by crippling insurance as the autonomous vehicles share increases.
Governments will legislate to promote them, and insurance companies will hike up human driver prices to stratospheric levels for the diehards and classic car owners who refuse to go down without a fight. You haven't seen anything yet, so lube up that 3 bearing crankshaft and bend over.
Telematics (the black box in the car that watches your every move) will shortly be compulsory for Mr & Mrs Average (even if driven by pricing alone) banging another nail into the petrolhead coffin. Insurance with telematics £250, without £2500. 5 seconds of spirited driving or harsh braking (someone pulling out in front of you) will mean Insurance cancelled or £1000 extra premium thank you very much. It won't be our finest hour according to the Churchill Insurance dog, but it will be the beginning of the end of our independence and privacy. You won't be able to go anywhere in a car/pod without it being recorded in minute easily searchable web stalking detail. .
Classics cars will live on silently in dull museums on old British car plant brownfield sites, frequented mainly by men over 40, with collars turned up shuffling embarrassingly amongst the exhibits as if they were in a 1970's high street porn shop.
Some cars will be trailered to track days or shows by the obstinate and wealthy for the last twichings of the dying corpse of being a petrolhead.
Petrol will again revert to being something you can only buy at the chemists for £50 a litre in brown paper bags to hide your socially unacceptable addiction to 20w/50 oil fumes and mechanical crapness. Our 120 year old love affair with the car as we know it will be over even before the fat lady sings..
The oil industry will contract to pre internal combustion levels as petrol and plastics feel the might of Mumsnet, social networking and Google, there won't be a petrol station or cling film wrapped bio-engineered apple on a polystyrene tray in all the land..
Welcome to the second half of the 21st century, it's just around the corner, like your Google pod which will be with you in 2 minutes according to the App.
'Thank you for your holding, your journey is important to us (our bottom line). Unfortunately we are experiencing high customer demand for pods today. You are number 1,984 in the queue. Why not miss that hospital chemotherapy appointment and rebook your journey for a later time.
Please hold to be taken back to the middle ages and a 1974 Austin Allegro will be dispatched to convey you to your destination in no safety or comfort whatsoever. Please note journeys in an Austin Allegro are not guaranteed to be completed.
Your statutory rights and entitlements will be completely usurped and walked over by our policies.
Press # Hash to see what a mess the government is making of the transport system.
Press 1 to listen to a patronising message from our glorious leader and chief sponsor Elon Musk..
Press 2 to sink back into self loathing and depression about not doing anything to stop the tide of 'progress' and sweeping away of privacy twenty years ago.
Thank you for choosing to travel with FacePod today.. '
Max_Torque said:
As opposed to today, where drivers sit in stationary cars, in a huge queue, going nowhere but polluting massively. Take a look around you at the other drivers in your jam you are sitting in, see any smiling happy faces? no? thought not!
Where I live this is not what occurs. I have chosen not to live in an area of population density and as such I can jump in to any one of my cars and truly go for a blast.Even the daily commute during 'rush' hour is free flowing traffic.
So the doom and gloom picture you describe is not for all of us.
And anyone is free to get away from all that city centre bullshyte if they wish - if you choose to stay then fair enough.
In population centres even with electric milk float autonomous vehicles, you'll still encounter congestion with red lights as intersections are likely to stay for a long time, and people still need to cross the road. And with ever more growing numbers of people, the closer packed vehicles with autonomous drivers only mean its only a short term solution to a current traffic volume situation. So those congested pictures are likely to be the case even with milk floats taxing people everywhere.
Atomic12C said:
Max_Torque said:
As opposed to today, where drivers sit in stationary cars, in a huge queue, going nowhere but polluting massively. Take a look around you at the other drivers in your jam you are sitting in, see any smiling happy faces? no? thought not!
Where I live this is not what occurs. I have chosen not to live in an area of population density and as such I can jump in to any one of my cars and truly go for a blast.Even the daily commute during 'rush' hour is free flowing traffic.
So the doom and gloom picture you describe is not for all of us.
And anyone is free to get away from all that city centre bullshyte if they wish - if you choose to stay then fair enough.
In population centres even with electric milk float autonomous vehicles, you'll still encounter congestion with red lights as intersections are likely to stay for a long time, and people still need to cross the road. And with ever more growing numbers of people, the closer packed vehicles with autonomous drivers only mean its only a short term solution to a current traffic volume situation. So those congested pictures are likely to be the case even with milk floats taxing people everywhere.
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