Discussion
Is there a reason we've moved towards electric and away from any other fuel that may power an internal combustion engine? There have been some very recent and dramatic improvements in engine technology and thus efficiency using petroleum derivatives forced by regulatory change and there's always some discovery of a new biofuel or process to create it, kept on the fringes of science.
I presume LPG and biodiesel are not efficient or clean enough. Is that where the future of the engine died? I know it's century old technology, but it's absurd that governments forget we're still powering electric vehicles with fossil fuels.
I presume LPG and biodiesel are not efficient or clean enough. Is that where the future of the engine died? I know it's century old technology, but it's absurd that governments forget we're still powering electric vehicles with fossil fuels.
It takes a lot of energy to produce hydrogen, new infrastructure required, the list of pros outweighs the cons I think. At least at the moment.
EV is easier. Distribution infrastructure is already in place, even to people's homes, source can be renewable. Makes EV take up at the consumer level a much easier proposition. Many good reasons or reasons that could potentially be good/made better in the future.
EV is easier. Distribution infrastructure is already in place, even to people's homes, source can be renewable. Makes EV take up at the consumer level a much easier proposition. Many good reasons or reasons that could potentially be good/made better in the future.
Edited by chrisgeary on Tuesday 25th September 13:26
jfire said:
Is there a reason we've moved towards electric
Because physics (and chemistry)...... ;-)The laws of the universe, conveniently tightly link magnetism and electricity meaning energy can be transferred bi-directionally between those two media without incurring a large loss.
And electro-chemisty also allows a similar link between certain chemistry and the flow of electrons.
Therefore, an EV, with a chemical battery can transfer power from it's battery and into it's KE, and importantly, also remove energy from it's KE and put it back into the battery without large losses.
Even a hydrogen fuel cell car still requires a battery (to allow load leveling and provide regenerative capability. And once you have a battery, the costs to just make that battery a little bit bigger (simply fit more of the same cells / modules you already fit) are significantly less than the costs to include the hydrogen fuel cell in the first place!
Even if you somehow made a heat engine that was as efficient in converting a fuel into motion as an electric traction system (battery+inverter+motor) then it still couldn't recover KE from the vehicles mass and refill the fuel tank when you brake (it's theoretically possible of course to build a hydrogen generator that runs on electricity, but today, the efficiencies are horrendously low and the cost onerous meaning there is little gain to do so)
Hydrogen may still ultimately have a place in our energy future, but as a remote bulk energy store, and not (for passenger cars anyway) as a local energy store.
Max_Torque said:
Because physics (and chemistry)...... ;-)
The laws of the universe, conveniently tightly link magnetism and electricity meaning energy can be transferred bi-directionally between those two media without incurring a large loss.
And electro-chemisty also allows a similar link between certain chemistry and the flow of electrons.
Therefore, an EV, with a chemical battery can transfer power from it's battery and into it's KE, and importantly, also remove energy from it's KE and put it back into the battery without large losses.
Even a hydrogen fuel cell car still requires a battery (to allow load leveling and provide regenerative capability. And once you have a battery, the costs to just make that battery a little bit bigger (simply fit more of the same cells / modules you already fit) are significantly less than the costs to include the hydrogen fuel cell in the first place!
Even if you somehow made a heat engine that was as efficient in converting a fuel into motion as an electric traction system (battery+inverter+motor) then it still couldn't recover KE from the vehicles mass and refill the fuel tank when you brake (it's theoretically possible of course to build a hydrogen generator that runs on electricity, but today, the efficiencies are horrendously low and the cost onerous meaning there is little gain to do so)
Hydrogen may still ultimately have a place in our energy future, but as a remote bulk energy store, and not (for passenger cars anyway) as a local energy store.
Top postThe laws of the universe, conveniently tightly link magnetism and electricity meaning energy can be transferred bi-directionally between those two media without incurring a large loss.
And electro-chemisty also allows a similar link between certain chemistry and the flow of electrons.
Therefore, an EV, with a chemical battery can transfer power from it's battery and into it's KE, and importantly, also remove energy from it's KE and put it back into the battery without large losses.
Even a hydrogen fuel cell car still requires a battery (to allow load leveling and provide regenerative capability. And once you have a battery, the costs to just make that battery a little bit bigger (simply fit more of the same cells / modules you already fit) are significantly less than the costs to include the hydrogen fuel cell in the first place!
Even if you somehow made a heat engine that was as efficient in converting a fuel into motion as an electric traction system (battery+inverter+motor) then it still couldn't recover KE from the vehicles mass and refill the fuel tank when you brake (it's theoretically possible of course to build a hydrogen generator that runs on electricity, but today, the efficiencies are horrendously low and the cost onerous meaning there is little gain to do so)
Hydrogen may still ultimately have a place in our energy future, but as a remote bulk energy store, and not (for passenger cars anyway) as a local energy store.
jfire said:
I went back a good few pages
What about Hydrogen?
If you mean burning it, Hydrogen is not as straightforwardly pollution free as it seems because you're burning it in air (79% Nitrogen) not pure Oxygen - so you end up with trade offs between relatively high power output and high temperatures and a lot of NOx pollutant, or very low power output and not much NOx. There are fixes but it's not the "just water" that's often claimed (at least not without some effort). It's currently mostly made from hydrocarbons as well, and not electrolysis. And there's the already-pointed-out storage and transportation issues. Electric vehicles are currently a lot more cost effective (witness the fact that you can actually buy them for reasonably sensible amounts of money). This may not always be true of course - but it's likely to take decades to change, if ever.What about Hydrogen?
jfire said:
I don't know if I'm disproving my point or yours here but why is a Prius not much more efficient if most of the energy used is being recycled back to the battery?
It's 2-300kg heavier than other, non-hybrid cars in it's class.While it will recover some energy from braking, it's offset by having to haul the bulk around. Using a petrol engine to generate electricity locally is also pretty inefficient.
Power stations and power transmission lines are much more efficient at delivering electrical energy into the car's batteries than an onboard generator
As I see it the trouble with alternative power supplies is they require a battery which is not the best environmental friend when considering production/supply chain/limited recycling/longevity. Best solution is buy a petrol and keep it for 250k miles or 25 yrs; manufactures wouldn't like it of course
jfire said:
I don't know if I'm disproving my point or yours here but why is a Prius not much more efficient if most of the energy used is being recycled back to the battery?
eh?a Prius returns around 94 mpg over the official test cycle and in the real world most owners report getting around the mid 50's mpg in normal use.
Name another pure petrol or diesel car of the same class that gets anywhere near those figures??
Not for nothing is the Prius the Taxi of choice in the most of the country now........
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