Toyota - why no full EV’s ?

[Itsallicanafford]

I cannot quite work this out. The gen 1 Prius was released in about 1996, but since then they have refined the tech a little and added plug in variants but just allowed everybody else to catch up and in Tesla’s case to leave them behind. What’s there R&D department been doing?

We have 2 Toyota hybrids for our daily cars, a Auris and a (Lexus) IS300H. I’ve made a little deal with myself that I will only replace the IS with a full EV, preferably another Lexus, but I cannot see anything on the horizon.

Thoughts?

[BMW330enut]

From what I’ve read the Japanese don’t see EV as the future. They are developing hydrogen fuel cell so expect to see this in the not to distant future.

[gangzoom]

We also have an IS300H, and I would swap it for an EV version in a heart beat, but sadly with Toyota having little interest in EVs we are looking at a Model 3 or Hyundai.

Toyota have spent stupid amounts developing hydrogen fuel cells cars, which are now essentially dead. But in Asian culture 'saving face' is nearly as important as profit. Nissan HQ is down the road from Toyota HQ, and the hatred of EVs/Hydrogen fuel cells between the two companies are as strong United/City.

Hopefully Toyota will see the light and start developing full EVs before they become the Nokia/Kodak of the car industry.

[Evanivitch]

BMW330enut said:

From what I’ve read the Japanese don’t see EV as the future. They are developing hydrogen fuel cell so expect to see this in the not to distant future.

This. They also heavily invested in the Prius drivetrain and perhaps took their eye off the PHEV and EV progression.

[BMW330enut]

I’m not so sure they’ve missed a trick. I personally don’t see ev as a mainstream alternative to ICE. We are too reliant on fossil fuel to produce electricity and the population has a natural tendency to object to nuclear power.

If we all switched to electric cars the grid would fall over. It simply isn’t up to the job and there is little investment going into it.

They will have their niche but that’s all I see it will be, hydrogen fuel cell is far more scalable and I believe could still come back to overtake EV in market share in the future.

I currently run a PHEV, they are at best a company car tax avoidance scheme. The fuel consumption is no better than a petrol car and the nuisance of plugging it in every time you park soon builds. Any benefit from the hybrid tech is lost in the extra weight the car has to lug around.

Edited by BMW330enut on Saturday 3rd March 10:52

[Evanivitch]

BMW330enut said:

We are too reliant on fossil fuel to produce electricity and the population has a natural tendency to object to nuclear power.

If we all switched to electric cars the grid would fall over. It simply isn’t up to the job and there is little investment going into it.

They will have their niche but that’s all I see it will be, hydrogen fuel cell is far more scalable and I believe could still come back to overtake EV in market share in the future.

I currently run a PHEV, they are at best a company car tax avoidance scheme. The fuel consumption is no better than a petrol car and the nuisance of plugging it in every time you park soon builds. Any benefit from the hybrid tech is lost in the extra weight the car has to lug around.

Edited by BMW330enut on Saturday 3rd March 10:52

You just won EV B******* Bingo!

National Grid said themselves they can support EV. They're even supporting a rapid charge network!

How do you think we make hydrogen? Electrolysis! It's an energy storage medium, not an energy source.

You're not alone in miss-using your PHEV because you bought it for tax reasons (pretty typical of 330e owners). But many of us use our PHEV effectively and find plugging Inna lot more convenient than going to the petrol station. The pre-heating is convenient too.

And when you do actually charge your car, your MPGe is several times that of running on ICE. And even when you run on ICE you're still benefiting from brake energy recovery.

Have a gold star.

[raspy]

Toyota are working on full EVs. I'm not surprised they have waited as battery technology is still quite poor for mass market vehicles, imho.

Article points out that Toyota EVs will hit China first (given that's the largest market, makes sense)

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/18/toyota-to-make-ove...

[jason61c]

BMW330enut said:

I’m not so sure they’ve missed a trick. I personally don’t see ev as a mainstream alternative to ICE. We are too reliant on fossil fuel to produce electricity and the population has a natural tendency to object to nuclear power.

If we all switched to electric cars the grid would fall over. It simply isn’t up to the job and there is little investment going into it.

They will have their niche but that’s all I see it will be, hydrogen fuel cell is far more scalable and I believe could still come back to overtake EV in market share in the future.

I currently run a PHEV, they are at best a company car tax avoidance scheme. The fuel consumption is no better than a petrol car and the nuisance of plugging it in every time you park soon builds. Any benefit from the hybrid tech is lost in the extra weight the car has to lug around.

Edited by BMW330enut on Saturday 3rd March 10:52

I think hydrogen is the way forward, its tech thats basically been hidden away by the powers that be though.

I don't know anyone who runs a PHEV for anything other than avoiding tax. That's the masterstroke. I'm just waiting to see what my next option will be in 18months when the PHEV goes back.

[jjwilde]

jason61c said:

I think hydrogen is the way forward, its tech thats basically been hidden away by the powers that be though.

Oh do tell us about how hydrogen is the future

Don't forget to tell us where this hydrogen will come from, include your energy use.

[BMW330enut]

Evanivitch said:

BMW330enut said:

We are too reliant on fossil fuel to produce electricity and the population has a natural tendency to object to nuclear power.

If we all switched to electric cars the grid would fall over. It simply isn’t up to the job and there is little investment going into it.

They will have their niche but that’s all I see it will be, hydrogen fuel cell is far more scalable and I believe could still come back to overtake EV in market share in the future.

I currently run a PHEV, they are at best a company car tax avoidance scheme. The fuel consumption is no better than a petrol car and the nuisance of plugging it in every time you park soon builds. Any benefit from the hybrid tech is lost in the extra weight the car has to lug around.

Edited by BMW330enut on Saturday 3rd March 10:52

You just won EV B******* Bingo!

National Grid said themselves they can support EV. They're even supporting a rapid charge network!

How do you think we make hydrogen? Electrolysis! It's an energy storage medium, not an energy source.

You're not alone in miss-using your PHEV because you bought it for tax reasons (pretty typical of 330e owners). But many of us use our PHEV effectively and find plugging Inna lot more convenient than going to the petrol station. The pre-heating is convenient too.

And when you do actually charge your car, your MPGe is several times that of running on ICE. And even when you run on ICE you're still benefiting from brake energy recovery.

Have a gold star.

People like you shouldn’t be allowed access to the internet. You wouldn’t speak to me that way if you stood in front of me, so why do you think it’s acceptable on a forum?

[jjwilde]

BMW330enut said:

People like you shouldn’t be allowed access to the internet. You wouldn’t speak to me that way if you stood in front of me, so why do you think it’s acceptable on a forum?

You are talking bks though and he called you out on it.

[anonymous-user]

BMW330enut said:

People like you shouldn’t be allowed access to the internet.

Maybe he is just a front for those shadowy "powers that be" ?


;-)

[AW111]

Max_Torque said:

BMW330enut said:

People like you shouldn’t be allowed access to the internet.

Maybe he is just a front for those shadowy "powers that be" ?


;-)

Russian sounding username too - it's got to be a double-bluff. Deep state for sure.

[Plug Life]

BMW330enut said:

I’m not so sure they’ve missed a trick.

You definitely did. Btw, aren't you from Yorkshire, perchance?

[herewego]

jjwilde said:

BMW330enut said:

People like you shouldn’t be allowed access to the internet. You wouldn’t speak to me that way if you stood in front of me, so why do you think it’s acceptable on a forum?

You are talking bks though and he called you out on it.

Mostly I agree but it's clear that BMW plugins are a tax scam. Taxpayers should not be subsidising cars that do not achieve the promised mpg.

[BMW330enut]

jjwilde said:

BMW330enut said:

People like you shouldn’t be allowed access to the internet. You wouldn’t speak to me that way if you stood in front of me, so why do you think it’s acceptable on a forum?

You are talking bks though and he called you out on it.

I do like people who state their opinion as fact.

[MrOrange]

herewego said:

jjwilde said:

BMW330enut said:

People like you shouldn’t be allowed access to the internet. You wouldn’t speak to me that way if you stood in front of me, so why do you think it’s acceptable on a forum?

You are talking bks though and he called you out on it.

Mostly I agree but it's clear that BMW plugins are a tax scam. Taxpayers should not be subsidising cars that do not achieve the promised mpg.

Would that “subsidy” include all the diesels and petrols that fail to “achieve the promised MPG”? Or is the subsidy based on emissions instead?

Speaking from first-hand experience I can assure you that PHEV do achieve better consumption and emissions that petrol alone and do frequently surpass the quoted MPG on journeys.

Edited by MrOrange on Saturday 3rd March 17:09

[Evanivitch]

BMW330enut said:

jjwilde said:

BMW330enut said:

People like you shouldn’t be allowed access to the internet. You wouldn’t speak to me that way if you stood in front of me, so why do you think it’s acceptable on a forum?

You are talking bks though and he called you out on it.

I do like people who state their opinion as fact.

Pot kettle black? I'll happily call you out on your ignorant b******* face to face. You made false statements of fact that can easily, and have been repeatedly proven to be wrong.

For people to continue to make such statements can no longer be treated as simple naivety because the information is in the public and is widely reported on the press.

[Otispunkmeyer]

raspy said:

Toyota are working on full EVs. I'm not surprised they have waited as battery technology is still quite poor for mass market vehicles, imho.

Article points out that Toyota EVs will hit China first (given that's the largest market, makes sense)

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/18/toyota-to-make-ove...

Yep Toyota started their own EV dev team not too long ago. Started with just the 4 employees but presumably they’ve gotten a bit larger.

I was going to say that the Japanese (having worked with and now for a Japanese company) can be quite slow and quite left arm not knowing what the right arm is doing and of course, they’re too proud to ask for help sometimes. Which doesn’t help.

However Look at diesels. I would say they were on the money when it came to not bothering too much with diesels. They did eventually come round as to sell cars in Europe you need a diesel option. But I am not sure they offered the, elsewhere. The likes of Honda first started by employing ISUZU motors in the civic before embarking on their own designs. Toyota had a stab as well, but now have jacked that in and buy them off BMW. Nissan leverage their partnership with Renault for theirs and Honda now just make the 1.6 DTEC. Mazda still make a 2.2 albeit a bit left field with its low compression ratio and from what I can see, haven’t mentioned where they’ll take it next....they’ve been concentrating on HCCI instead. And that is before you realise that in the US at least Mazda top the fuel efficiency charts without an EV or hybrid in sight! So they seem to know what’s up.

So the Japanese have seemingly never been big on diesels in passenger cars. At the time perhaps people thought they were a bit slow off the mark or missing a trick. But now we know what we know I think they made the right call there, perhaps history will repeat. I’d certainly like to think they aren’t just sat there letting the world pass them by!

Nissan seem to have staked some good bets on EV with the Leaf. But Honda and Toyota are still pouring money into hydrogen and Mazda haven’t given up on the ICE yet. Nor have Toyota...their new 2.0 petrol is 40% thermally efficient.

I think they have the right idea. People are writing the ICE off too early. I think high efficiency gasoline engines augmented with hybrid gubbins will be the order of the day for mass market transportation for quite some time.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Saturday 3rd March 18:09

[RobDickinson]

Hydrogen looks like a thing in Japan because they get hydrogen for free from nuclear power, doesnt really relate to the rest of the world