Porsche Mission E
Discussion
Hi everyone as some of you might have read in my thread Tesla Ups and downs I haven't loved every aspect of Tesla and to some extent EV ownership.
So I have had my eye on the Mission E for some time as I am a Porsche fan and I'm hoping that they will rectify a lot of the problems I have with my Tesla. I wasn't taking it that seriously until very recently as I thought Porsche were going to put some mad price tag on it and call it a Halo car making it a bit pointless. However with the price of $86,000 being rumoured that makes it possible to replace the Tesla with one in 2019/20 which will be about right as I will have had the Tesla for 3 years.
The main reasons I think it may be an improvement are that i would hope it is built like a Panamera or Cayenne which in my experience are built very well. The customer service will be to Porsche levels instead of the quite honestly amateur Tesla levels I have experienced.
Assuming it achieves its goals the 15 minute charging to 80% really will solve a lot of the problems I have with my Tesla also I just can't imagine Porsche bringing it out and it not being able to sit on the Autobahn all day at 100mph without completely destroying the range. Of course I have no idea how this can be achieved. If you go to Germany there appears to be only one place you see Panama's and thats in the outside lane doing crazy speeds Porsche knows that is what there customers expect.
It would be an added bonus if the handling is a bit sharper as well.
My reservations are that it won't have a good enough charging network so the 15 minute charging will be useless because there aren't enough chargers and that it has the same problems as the Tesla in that on long journeys you have to keep your foot off the peddle to make sure you get there.
So am I crazy for thinking this could be a good replacement or kidding myself? Either way I am calling my local Porsche dealer to tell him I want 2 and to keep me up to date.
So I have had my eye on the Mission E for some time as I am a Porsche fan and I'm hoping that they will rectify a lot of the problems I have with my Tesla. I wasn't taking it that seriously until very recently as I thought Porsche were going to put some mad price tag on it and call it a Halo car making it a bit pointless. However with the price of $86,000 being rumoured that makes it possible to replace the Tesla with one in 2019/20 which will be about right as I will have had the Tesla for 3 years.
The main reasons I think it may be an improvement are that i would hope it is built like a Panamera or Cayenne which in my experience are built very well. The customer service will be to Porsche levels instead of the quite honestly amateur Tesla levels I have experienced.
Assuming it achieves its goals the 15 minute charging to 80% really will solve a lot of the problems I have with my Tesla also I just can't imagine Porsche bringing it out and it not being able to sit on the Autobahn all day at 100mph without completely destroying the range. Of course I have no idea how this can be achieved. If you go to Germany there appears to be only one place you see Panama's and thats in the outside lane doing crazy speeds Porsche knows that is what there customers expect.
It would be an added bonus if the handling is a bit sharper as well.
My reservations are that it won't have a good enough charging network so the 15 minute charging will be useless because there aren't enough chargers and that it has the same problems as the Tesla in that on long journeys you have to keep your foot off the peddle to make sure you get there.
So am I crazy for thinking this could be a good replacement or kidding myself? Either way I am calling my local Porsche dealer to tell him I want 2 and to keep me up to date.
I may not have written that last part very well. I meant I am going to tell my Porsche dealer that I am very strongly interested and if it does everything it says I will be wanting 2. Not actually placing a solid order.
It's more so that i am kept up to date with info and hopefully be able to see and drive one as soon as possible to make a decision.
It's more so that i am kept up to date with info and hopefully be able to see and drive one as soon as possible to make a decision.
I too would like Tesla to have some competition, whether that be Porsche, Jaguar or whoever. Unfortunately without them having an infrastructure to compete with the Supercharger network, which is expanding all the time, I don't see any being a credible alternative.
Tesla's build quality isn't premium, and the "customer experience" patchy, but if they can improve in these areas they'll continue to be the segment leader for the foreseeable future IMO.
Tesla's build quality isn't premium, and the "customer experience" patchy, but if they can improve in these areas they'll continue to be the segment leader for the foreseeable future IMO.
As a EV& Porsche fan, the Mission E sounds exciting, I however expect the reality to be disappointing, baffles me how the "traditional" car manufacturers don't seem to understand that a fast charging network is necessary, but then I guess they are in an Egg and Chicken situation, as in do they build the car or the Charging network first. Also the fear that EVs might cannibalise the sales of their ICEs is a very real concern.
Of course while they are dilly dallying Tesla are rolling out cars and infrastructure..............
The only saving grace IMO is that the technology and skillset being developed will be rolled out across the whole VW group
Of course while they are dilly dallying Tesla are rolling out cars and infrastructure..............
The only saving grace IMO is that the technology and skillset being developed will be rolled out across the whole VW group
From what I understand Porsche/VAG are very aware that the car without the charging network is basically useless.
Theoretical question for everyone.
If VAG do create a network of chargers that can charge your car in 15 mins what would this do to the Tesla network? By this I mean that would make the Tesla network quite slow in comparison. How difficult would it be for Tesla to upgrade there network? Is it a matter of simply opening up the box and turning up the power or something more difficult?
Theoretical question for everyone.
If VAG do create a network of chargers that can charge your car in 15 mins what would this do to the Tesla network? By this I mean that would make the Tesla network quite slow in comparison. How difficult would it be for Tesla to upgrade there network? Is it a matter of simply opening up the box and turning up the power or something more difficult?
ntiz said:
From what I understand Porsche/VAG are very aware that the car without the charging network is basically useless.
Theoretical question for everyone.
If VAG do create a network of chargers that can charge your car in 15 mins what would this do to the Tesla network? By this I mean that would make the Tesla network quite slow in comparison. How difficult would it be for Tesla to upgrade there network? Is it a matter of simply opening up the box and turning up the power or something more difficult?
Porsche/VW have nailed their flag to the CCS mast .. so it's 50kW today with a path to 350kW. They rely on 3rd parties for this. Theoretical question for everyone.
If VAG do create a network of chargers that can charge your car in 15 mins what would this do to the Tesla network? By this I mean that would make the Tesla network quite slow in comparison. How difficult would it be for Tesla to upgrade there network? Is it a matter of simply opening up the box and turning up the power or something more difficult?
Tesla use a proprietary charger/connector (for fast DC) and control every aspect. Hardware is reused between the car and chargers, plus battery storage is used to buffer the network supply (a couple of power walls!). Tesla is an energy company that supplies cars.
It's going to be far easier for Tesla to keep ahead than those relying on CCS/Chademo as they control everything. Rumour is that the Tesla truck will support a higher charge rate (currently 120kW).
ntiz said:
How difficult would it be for Tesla to upgrade there network? Is it a matter of simply opening up the box and turning up the power or something more difficult?
Essenitally yes, but cables will also need upgrading. Tesla probably have the ability to run much higher rate chargers already but the battery tech isnt here yet to accept the 350KW charging Porsche is shooting for.https://transportevolved.com/2015/06/17/video-tesl...
I suspect the ccs standard pushing to 150kw and above is more headline grabbing than being a desire. Tesla 120kw limit is for now good enough and a focus on more points across the country rather than faster is sensible for the next few years is the right thing. Porsche etc may want 150kw just to say they’ve the fastest.
There’s also little point going above 120/150 as the batteries can’t go any faster, and certainly Tesla’s built now can’t, they already drop away from 120 fairly quickly.
There’s also little point going above 120/150 as the batteries can’t go any faster, and certainly Tesla’s built now can’t, they already drop away from 120 fairly quickly.
Tesla are also members of the 350kW CharIn consortium, so it's clear that they're hedging their bets. Once CCS at higher powers becomes more common (infrastructure and vehicles!), then are you going to give up 10% of your service station car park for Tesla-only charging; or a more open standard?
One of the issues is that if you want to avoid having expensive charging voltage conversion in the car AND the charger, then you can only really supply current to the vehicle battery at the voltage of that battery. That means as more power is needed, more current must be pushed through the charging socket and connector. Making a connector to handle say 500A and be easy to, er, handle, for the average persion is non trivial! Already the systems have temperature sensors in the handles near the contacts and modulate the charge current to avoid melting the connector...
As vehicle battery voltages climb up above the 350 to 450vdc at which they currently sit, and up to, and beyond 700Vdc then the charging system can deliver more power more easily. And at that point, you probably are going to be feeding the system with (in the UK at least) an 11kV feed, so the higher the DC voltage the less step down and the higher the efficiency of the whole system.
Currently mass produced power silicon comes in two flavours, 600Vdc and 1200Vdc (because those at the industrial voltage ranges) and the 1200v stuff is both more expensive and more lossy. But more and more EVs will be released with higher and higher voltages, pushing efficiency up (lower i^2R losses) and increasing power density.
As vehicle battery voltages climb up above the 350 to 450vdc at which they currently sit, and up to, and beyond 700Vdc then the charging system can deliver more power more easily. And at that point, you probably are going to be feeding the system with (in the UK at least) an 11kV feed, so the higher the DC voltage the less step down and the higher the efficiency of the whole system.
Currently mass produced power silicon comes in two flavours, 600Vdc and 1200Vdc (because those at the industrial voltage ranges) and the 1200v stuff is both more expensive and more lossy. But more and more EVs will be released with higher and higher voltages, pushing efficiency up (lower i^2R losses) and increasing power density.
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