A new trend in Anti EV rhetoric ?

[J4CKO]

Seen a couple of posts on FB from folk that basically go "EV's are bad, I dont like them, because of nasty mining, but mainly I dont like/understand"

A bit like the US gun lobby really,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4764208/Ch...

Was one posted, another was a picture of a massive open cast mine versus a tiny itty bitty wellhead for the unobtrusive and ecologically friendly extraction of crude oil like its the most natural thing in the world, IC engines and their pollution over the last 100 years are nothing compared to EV's needing some ore extracted.

Both posts were by older owners of diesel cars, who also own classics ?

So, what is the real situation, is EV production worse, better, same ? is this oil company sponsored ?

Is this just fear of the unknown, they cant be that fussed if they drive diesels ?

[SantaBarbara]

Why has it taken so long to develop Electric cars?

I remember when I was an apprentice at AEI Rugby, they were working with a Hill an Imp, trying to convert it to Electric, that was fifty years ago

[J4CKO]

SantaBarbara said:

Why has it taken so long to develop Electric cars?

I remember when I was an apprentice at AEI Rugby, they were working with a Hill an Imp, trying to convert it to Electric, that was fifty years ago

Because there wasnt much of a market, fifty years ago it was uncatalysed petrols in cars, and diesels for buses and haulage, IC engines have been developed and improved to cut down on emissions.

The batteries back then were massive, heavy Lead Acids, people did get electric cars to run very well but they were slow, had poor range and were just converted IC cars, battery and motor tech has improved, the landscape has changed in terms of emissions targets and there is more of an appetite for EV's that just wastnt here back then, some saw the benefits but against the car and oil companies not much happened.

Elon Musk then comes along and gives the car companies a wake up call, the timing was right, the product was mostly right and it is now happening.

Basically it took so long to develop EV's as for 45 of those years, they werent developed, IC's were, now a lot of the effort put into IC's is being diverted to EV's and like most things that gets time and money thrown at it, especially with such a potential return, I reckon it will happen, with IT being a big switch to EV's based on a tipping point where they are just much, much better than any alternative in every way, they arent there yet but getting closer and its only range and charge time that are the issues.

[anonymous-user]

J4CKO said:

SantaBarbara said:

Why has it taken so long to develop Electric cars?

I remember when I was an apprentice at AEI Rugby, they were working with a Hill an Imp, trying to convert it to Electric, that was fifty years ago

Because there wasnt much of a market, fifty years ago it was uncatalysed petrols in cars, and diesels for buses and haulage, IC engines have been developed and improved to cut down on emissions.

The batteries back then were massive, heavy Lead Acids, people did get electric cars to run very well but they were slow, had poor range and were just converted IC cars, battery and motor tech has improved, the landscape has changed in terms of emissions targets and there is more of an appetite for EV's that just wastnt here back then, some saw the benefits but against the car and oil companies not much happened.

Elon Musk then comes along and gives the car companies a wake up call, the timing was right, the product was mostly right and it is now happening.

Basically it took so long to develop EV's as for 45 of those years, they werent developed, IC's were, now a lot of the effort put into IC's is being diverted to EV's and like most things that gets time and money thrown at it, especially with such a potential return, I reckon it will happen, with IT being a big switch to EV's based on a tipping point where they are just much, much better than any alternative in every way, they arent there yet but getting closer and its only range and charge time that are the issues.

"and its only range and charge time that are the issues."

And price. The Tesla range are the only all rounders at the moment and whilst the cars themselves, or at least the S, are pretty good, the price is way too high. Well into and above 7 series and S class territory for the equivalent of a low spec 5 series or E class IMO.

It'll be interesting to see if the 3 appears at the price it's been rumoured to be. If it is, it will beg the question if why the S and X are so expensive. If not then the issue remains.

If they sort the range and charging issues and price them competitively it'll be a no brainer.

[Dazed and Confused]

EVs are fine for some people, absolutely not for millions of others. What does this have to do with the American Gun Lobby?

[Grunt Futtock]

I would dearly love an EV but the only ones available to me at my budget are basically too expensive. I could get myself an i3 but then I can't help but think of getting a lot more car for £20k. The Tesla Model 3 is going to be the first one I can seriously consider because of the combination of range, performance, practicality and most of all price.

I'm sold on the EV idea and they are perfect for my use case but the Nissan Leaf etc. just bore me to tears. and the cheapest second hand Tesla is around £45k still.

[caelite]

Generally I agree with the folk you are whingeing about. The biggest pollution causer in a vehicles life is building the car, it doesn't matter if it's a petrol, diesel, hybrid or EV. However the amount of pollution created in EV production is higher by a margin, primarily because more 'stuff' goes in to their production, not just the precious metals but also due to the nature of their drivetrain they tend to be larger and heavier.

We should be encouraging people to hold on to their vehicles for as long as possible, only replacing when they are truly no longer economical to keep on the road, sadly the automotive lobby will shun any initiative that promotes this. Remember the last time the industry was struggling we got the scrappage travesty, condemning thousands of perfectly good cars to scrap and causing millions of tons of pollution creating new ones.

Edited by caelite on Tuesday 8th August 09:07

[Richyboy]

I don't know much about tesla but it seems like they are making cars that are upgradeable in the future. Model 3 already set up for autopilot and 300 mile range, seems to me that it could easily replace a petrol car. Whereas the electric cars we have here now are just a stop gap until the proper ones come. I really want a bev 120ah i3 but by the time it comes I'd probably wait for the model 3.

[SonicShadow]

One point that consistently pops up is the number of publicly available charging points vs number of fuel stations in the UK. They always seem to forget that a lot of EV owners will have their very own energy filling station at home

Point that out though and you'll find out that everyone lives in a 21st floor flat with the car parked on the road 2 miles away...

[anonymous-user]

SantaBarbara said:

Why has it taken so long to develop Electric cars?

Simply because fossil fuels were so cheap and bountiful!

If you lived next to a restaurant that gave you fee meals, you probably wouldn't bother to cook for yourself, and it's the same with EVs. Around 80 years of cheap, abundant liquid fuels has mean't no need to develop and productionise EV tech.



(until now, when we are finally beginning to realise the cost we have paid as a society for all that cheap energy..........)

[vsonix]

I am not anti electric cars in principle but I think a very valid point is being raised about the environmental impact of forcing people to switch to electric cars too quickly. Tinfoil hat mode engage: the Tories are not a very pro-environment party, they are not particularly supportive of renewable energy and so forth so suddenly announcing that they are forcing everyone to ditch IC engines and move over to battery-powered cars smacks to me of 'vested interest'. Wouldn't surprise me at all if a few of them had shares in lithium mining companies. What happened to Hydrogen power? Has that hit a total dead end? Will EVs fall out of favour just as quickly as they came in and be phased out by 2060? After all, hark back to the early 90s and diesel was being touted as the big saviour of the environment and the fuel of the future; now it's being slated as the foulest, most carcinogenic muck ever.

[Ed.]

Dazed and Confused said:

EVs are fine for some people, absolutely not for millions of others. What does this have to do with the American Gun Lobby?

Makes it easier to discredit a group you disagree with if you can associate them with perceived crazies.

Who knows, maybe initial hybrid /ev uptake would have been quicker without the self-righteous smugness association.
The racing /rallying approach to marketing has been around nearly as long as cars themselves.

Edited by Ed. on Tuesday 8th August 13:42

[DapperDanMan]

Whenever this is discussed in the wider PH forums it seems to become an either or situation

So you either have all electric cars or you have ICE cars.

People don't seem to allow for the transition period which will take at least a decade or two. So those that a current EV fits their lifestyle get one now and then as the infrastructure improves and the technology increases range/charge times more people will find it fits into their lifestyle.

There is also a strong no man made climate change contingent that flood posts with links and graphs and scream about believers and half wits which means that a BEV = MMCC believer = Idiot.

Why can't it just be a sensible decision for some that costs less than the ICE equivalent and fits the life of the BEV owner.

[hunter 66]

I like burning fuel at 5 mpg , and will doing classic Daytona 24 and Sebring 12 this year , but since I bought a X , I see it . It is essentially about pollution and inner city issues , as well a global concerns .
I now prefer it every day to my V12 , which now is redundant ... it simply is the future
Yes there is no Noise but again in a city that is merely pollution as well .
All the manufacturers know that now .... hence the dramatic shift in direction

[modeller]

To the OP .. it's all down to money.
The German OEM's are (still) backing diesel .. they've invested billions in manufacturing and all tech to clean it up - DPF, Adblue, etc etc , ohh and they cheat when it gets too expensive.
Japanese favour Hydrogen fuel cell EV's - apparently Japan has a lot of gas that they can reform into H.
Of course the oil industry has spent 100's billions on up and down stream.

So the status quo is to stay with fossil fuels. I guess someone needs to tell this to Musk!

[anonymous-user]

J4CKO said:

Seen a couple of posts on FB from folk that basically go "EV's are bad, I dont like them, because of nasty mining, but mainly I dont like/understand"

A bit like the US gun lobby really,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4764208/Ch...

Was one posted, another was a picture of a massive open cast mine versus a tiny itty bitty wellhead for the unobtrusive and ecologically friendly extraction of crude oil like its the most natural thing in the world, IC engines and their pollution over the last 100 years are nothing compared to EV's needing some ore extracted.

Both posts were by older owners of diesel cars, who also own classics ?

So, what is the real situation, is EV production worse, better, same ? is this oil company sponsored ?

Is this just fear of the unknown, they cant be that fussed if they drive diesels ?

Is that the 'lithium mine v oil sands' image? If so it's been debunked http://www.snopes.com/lithium-mine-oil-sands/