Electric car modifications, tax and insurance categories
Discussion
As electric cars are becoming more popular, as in more of them and more different types.
I wonder a couple of things.
Firstly, how road tax might be altered to cater for differing performance. Currently engine size and Co2 are used to generally tax more powerful vehicles more heavily. A somewhat harder question to answer with electric powered vehicles. And the reality is, all electric vehicles will only be counted the 'same' for so long.
Along similar lines will be insurance. Not all electric cars are going to be equal. They do have a HP rating, but that doesn't really tell you how they are going to perform.
And related to this and the above, is aftermarket tuning. Anyone who is into RC cars/planes, knows there are several ways to alter the performance of an electric powertrain.
With internal combustion engines there are some easy precedents. But you can likely radically alter the performance of an electric setup often just by changing variables on a computer control system. And if you do replace parts, you may not actually be changing fundamental base spec.
Anyone care to guess how this might pan out?
I wonder a couple of things.
Firstly, how road tax might be altered to cater for differing performance. Currently engine size and Co2 are used to generally tax more powerful vehicles more heavily. A somewhat harder question to answer with electric powered vehicles. And the reality is, all electric vehicles will only be counted the 'same' for so long.
Along similar lines will be insurance. Not all electric cars are going to be equal. They do have a HP rating, but that doesn't really tell you how they are going to perform.
And related to this and the above, is aftermarket tuning. Anyone who is into RC cars/planes, knows there are several ways to alter the performance of an electric powertrain.
- alter the electronics to regulate a higher amp draw, i.e. the speed control acceleration profile.
- Run better batteries, more amps means more demand of the batteries. So batteries able to handle higher amp draws (better C rating) will offer more performance.
- Increase the battery voltage. More voltage means more power.
- Alter the electric motors timing.
- Swap in a hotter electric motor (different number or turns/winds or kv rating).
With internal combustion engines there are some easy precedents. But you can likely radically alter the performance of an electric setup often just by changing variables on a computer control system. And if you do replace parts, you may not actually be changing fundamental base spec.
Anyone care to guess how this might pan out?
300bhp/ton said:
Firstly, how road tax might be altered to cater for differing performance. Currently engine size and Co2 are used to generally tax more powerful vehicles more heavily. A somewhat harder question to answer with electric powered vehicles. And the reality is, all electric vehicles will only be counted the 'same' for so long.
Probably power or weight related. The £40k+ premium for VED applies to electric cars now.300bhp/ton said:
Along similar lines will be insurance. Not all electric cars are going to be equal. They do have a HP rating, but that doesn't really tell you how they are going to perform.
Electric cars are treated the same as IC by insurers anyway. Priced by risk and claims history and repair cost.300bhp/ton said:
And related to this and the above, is aftermarket tuning. Anyone who is into RC cars/planes, knows there are several ways to alter the performance of an electric powertrain.
...
With internal combustion engines there are some easy precedents. But you can likely radically alter the performance of an electric setup often just by changing variables on a computer control system. And if you do replace parts, you may not actually be changing fundamental base spec.
Isn't that just the same as chipping an IC car?...
With internal combustion engines there are some easy precedents. But you can likely radically alter the performance of an electric setup often just by changing variables on a computer control system. And if you do replace parts, you may not actually be changing fundamental base spec.
as a member of the UK and worldwide "Leaf" FB pages (exciting I know), the only mods I've seen are
changing wheels.
changing the daylight light running bulbs to LED ones.
maybe the odd hippy dippy green veggie sticker about emissions or the planet or some other nonsense.
I think beyond that, you're into technology so complex and expensive, no one is messing with it.
No normal owner is thinking: right, lets crack the chassis open and tinker with the battery.
However, maybe in time some "mapping" etc of software could take place. I do agree that EV's have lots of scope to be far far quicker than our normal view of ICE cars.
changing wheels.
changing the daylight light running bulbs to LED ones.
maybe the odd hippy dippy green veggie sticker about emissions or the planet or some other nonsense.
I think beyond that, you're into technology so complex and expensive, no one is messing with it.
No normal owner is thinking: right, lets crack the chassis open and tinker with the battery.
However, maybe in time some "mapping" etc of software could take place. I do agree that EV's have lots of scope to be far far quicker than our normal view of ICE cars.
To take advantage of better batter current, larger motors, thicker cables/lower resistance.... all will need reprogramming of the controller. It won't be cheap. And, unless you know the limits of all of the electronic components then you'll be risking heat or fire when you overheat something or burn through the insulation.
As with most IC cars on the road today, they'll use components which are sized to be a tiny safety margin above the required rated power. Especially with super expensive high current wires. So unless you rewire the whole power train then I'd doubt there'd be much scope for upgrading anything else.
As with most IC cars on the road today, they'll use components which are sized to be a tiny safety margin above the required rated power. Especially with super expensive high current wires. So unless you rewire the whole power train then I'd doubt there'd be much scope for upgrading anything else.
austinsmirk said:
I think beyond that, you're into technology so complex and expensive, no one is messing with it.
No normal owner is thinking: right, lets crack the chassis open and tinker with the battery.
OK, hybrid rather than 100% plug-in, but...No normal owner is thinking: right, lets crack the chassis open and tinker with the battery.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Ad mentioned already, because the electric traction system is so tightly controlled and subject to very small tolerances / variances, the components used do NOT have much head room. A typical phase current sensor will be specified at something like 85% to 90% of the current peak phase current, leaving just a small margin for increases.
Batteries are generally limited by lifeing requirements, rather than absolute ones (although as Tesla have shown, components like the main battery pack fuse can become limiting when the system power is increased.
There is also the fact that electric traction systems have a tighter integration into the host vehicle. More parameters are shared and monitored for normal operating limits. For example, the inverter will calculate the DC link current it is currently sinking, and if that doesn't match that coming out of the battery (as monitored by the BMS) then the system gets shut down.
Batteries are generally limited by lifeing requirements, rather than absolute ones (although as Tesla have shown, components like the main battery pack fuse can become limiting when the system power is increased.
There is also the fact that electric traction systems have a tighter integration into the host vehicle. More parameters are shared and monitored for normal operating limits. For example, the inverter will calculate the DC link current it is currently sinking, and if that doesn't match that coming out of the battery (as monitored by the BMS) then the system gets shut down.
It's a bit like older and newer IC cars.
Older ones are easier to tune, exhausts, cam changes, carb tweaks etc etc
Newer ones are more tricky and might require modified ECU maps etc etc
EV/Hybrids are the same really. Older ones are currently more hackable than newer ones.
Old IMA insight's, civic HCH1's are very hackable with a lot of analog stuff and they have a big overhead built into the oem electronics, allowing quite large increases in performance. The Insight IGBT for instance is a 600V 250A part. The OEM system uses only 100A and 190V tops (not at the same time either) so quite a big gap there. The motor rated at 10kw can take 15-20kw for short periods without damage. IIRC Mugen had a Honda Civic IMA race car and they tweaked that from 20kw to 35kw (with Honda help most likely.)
However as MT says newer models are more tied down, lesser overheads, and more sophisticated electronics which are harder to fool etc.
As for insurance and modding I used direct line and have declared all my mods.
As I'm relatively old 54, not a boy racer and the modified IMA electronics are my part time employment they seem happy enough.
Older ones are easier to tune, exhausts, cam changes, carb tweaks etc etc
Newer ones are more tricky and might require modified ECU maps etc etc
EV/Hybrids are the same really. Older ones are currently more hackable than newer ones.
Old IMA insight's, civic HCH1's are very hackable with a lot of analog stuff and they have a big overhead built into the oem electronics, allowing quite large increases in performance. The Insight IGBT for instance is a 600V 250A part. The OEM system uses only 100A and 190V tops (not at the same time either) so quite a big gap there. The motor rated at 10kw can take 15-20kw for short periods without damage. IIRC Mugen had a Honda Civic IMA race car and they tweaked that from 20kw to 35kw (with Honda help most likely.)
However as MT says newer models are more tied down, lesser overheads, and more sophisticated electronics which are harder to fool etc.
As for insurance and modding I used direct line and have declared all my mods.
As I'm relatively old 54, not a boy racer and the modified IMA electronics are my part time employment they seem happy enough.
Edited by peterperkins on Monday 8th May 18:38
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