Damage by Using LPG?
Discussion
I've spent some considerable time trying to find my Dad a Mercedes E55 AMG W210. I've viewed many, most described as original or immaculate but have turned out to be barried up, poorly repaired or in disrepair.
There have only been two that have been worth my time. One which was top money and showroom condition, but the owner decided to keep it and then this one, a fairly high miler but in good exterior/interior condition with nothing I cannot sort myself...only it has been LPG converted and for that matter has run solely on LPG for at least the last 7yrs.
Everything about the car checks out, amazing service history but, I believe it has hada fair amount of fueling issues in the past according to the paperwork (injectors and replacement ECU to try to remedy) due to the LPG, or rather perhaps that it was not set up correctly (although it looks connected well, in my limited knowledge). Mechanically otherwise, it looks OK but I detected a misfire which doesn't seem coil related and I think is perhaps injector related, again.
There are some alarm bells here I suppose, but I'm not expert on gas.
My main concern is that I believe running an engine on LPG for a long time can be detrimental, due to no/little lubrication in the combustion chamber which surely must wear the bores. You could say that if it was going to pop, it may have, but is there any way to check the engine's health?
There have only been two that have been worth my time. One which was top money and showroom condition, but the owner decided to keep it and then this one, a fairly high miler but in good exterior/interior condition with nothing I cannot sort myself...only it has been LPG converted and for that matter has run solely on LPG for at least the last 7yrs.
Everything about the car checks out, amazing service history but, I believe it has hada fair amount of fueling issues in the past according to the paperwork (injectors and replacement ECU to try to remedy) due to the LPG, or rather perhaps that it was not set up correctly (although it looks connected well, in my limited knowledge). Mechanically otherwise, it looks OK but I detected a misfire which doesn't seem coil related and I think is perhaps injector related, again.
There are some alarm bells here I suppose, but I'm not expert on gas.
My main concern is that I believe running an engine on LPG for a long time can be detrimental, due to no/little lubrication in the combustion chamber which surely must wear the bores. You could say that if it was going to pop, it may have, but is there any way to check the engine's health?
Edited by 1Addicted on Thursday 21st July 16:14
Check on the type of LPG system, single/multi point. Most likely multipoint.
The LPG will also have it's own ECU and an LPG specialist could see what is up and check/adjust the map.
The LPG system may have flashlube installed, which provides additional lubrication when running on LPG. This is usually installed on vehicles with soft valve seats. Don't know about Mercs valve seats.
If the engine has soft valve seats then you can get VSR (Valve seat recession) running on LPG. Flashlube can help. Better just not to fit LPG to cars with soft valve seats.
If the engine doesn't have soft valve seats then running on LPG should be no problem at all, and many cars have done mega miles on LPG with no issues.
The LPG will also have it's own ECU and an LPG specialist could see what is up and check/adjust the map.
The LPG system may have flashlube installed, which provides additional lubrication when running on LPG. This is usually installed on vehicles with soft valve seats. Don't know about Mercs valve seats.
If the engine has soft valve seats then you can get VSR (Valve seat recession) running on LPG. Flashlube can help. Better just not to fit LPG to cars with soft valve seats.
If the engine doesn't have soft valve seats then running on LPG should be no problem at all, and many cars have done mega miles on LPG with no issues.
I've never once heard of anyone who's covered 100k+ in an LPG converted car without a disaster. When you ask for experience you always get people who've done 30/40k or so without issue but I'm yet to find someone with first hand properly long term positive experience. Even when people sing it's praises a little digging soon reveals that the car has been miles away from the reliability you'd expect from a modern car that hasn't been interfered with.
My brother has converted or had converted a number of vehicles with varying levels of misfortune, and they are always miles more problematic than my unconverted cars. Cooling system issues seem to be particularly prevalent, as well as long standing and impossible to resolve issues with poor running. Aftersales support from the installers and manufacturers could generously be described as "patchy".
It does seem pretty obvious that a system fitted by "some bloke" and calibrated to your car by "some bloke" who has a big book of excuses for when the car f
ks up is going to give a lot more trouble than the original fuel delivery system designed, calibrated, and tested by thousands of engineers and sold by a company who has to take liability for any issues. Unless an LPG converted car was seriously cheap I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, nor would I want to rely on one as my only car.
My brother has converted or had converted a number of vehicles with varying levels of misfortune, and they are always miles more problematic than my unconverted cars. Cooling system issues seem to be particularly prevalent, as well as long standing and impossible to resolve issues with poor running. Aftersales support from the installers and manufacturers could generously be described as "patchy".
It does seem pretty obvious that a system fitted by "some bloke" and calibrated to your car by "some bloke" who has a big book of excuses for when the car f
ks up is going to give a lot more trouble than the original fuel delivery system designed, calibrated, and tested by thousands of engineers and sold by a company who has to take liability for any issues. Unless an LPG converted car was seriously cheap I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, nor would I want to rely on one as my only car.Edited by dme123 on Thursday 21st July 16:28
I'm no expert on LPG per say but I don't think you have much to worry about.
Petrol does not lubricate the pistons during 4-stroke operation - in fact excess petrol can cause the lubricating oil in the cylinders to be washed away, a phenomenon known as bore wash.
Re. The possibility of the owner being a bit of a scrounger - possibly, but equally if you had invested £2.5k+ in an LPG conversion wouldn't you want to look after your investment?
I think you just have to buy on the condition the car is in on the day.
Petrol does not lubricate the pistons during 4-stroke operation - in fact excess petrol can cause the lubricating oil in the cylinders to be washed away, a phenomenon known as bore wash.
Re. The possibility of the owner being a bit of a scrounger - possibly, but equally if you had invested £2.5k+ in an LPG conversion wouldn't you want to look after your investment?
I think you just have to buy on the condition the car is in on the day.
Vapour sequential injection, the most likely system fitted, has it's own injectors. Only liquid LPG injectors can be shared for both petrol and LPG, but these systems are extremely rare and expensive. The issue with petrol injectors comes from heat and lack of use when runnning on LPG. This causes build up of deposits on the injectors and affects the spray pattern. Most systems start on petrol and switch to LPG when the engine is warm, so running good petrol should keep them in good working order.
As for engine wear, LPG burns more cleanly and is actually better for the engine. The valve seats may suffer a bit on some engines if there is no flash lube system installed. It depends on what the actual LPG system is.
As for engine wear, LPG burns more cleanly and is actually better for the engine. The valve seats may suffer a bit on some engines if there is no flash lube system installed. It depends on what the actual LPG system is.
If the lpg's been set up properly that engine could be a gem inside. LPG engines don't suffer from bore wash or gas blowby which contaminates the oil. Better systems may have a lube setup to help the valve seats but good quality seats probably don't need it.
Also, an lpg modded engine can rack up huge mileage due to the oil staying cleaner for longer.
I'd be very tempted by the lpg modded merc.
Also, an lpg modded engine can rack up huge mileage due to the oil staying cleaner for longer.
I'd be very tempted by the lpg modded merc.
dme123 said:
I've never once heard of anyone who's covered 100k+ in an LPG converted car without a disaster. When you ask for experience you always get people who've done 30/40k or so without issue but I'm yet to find someone with first hand properly long term positive experience. Even when people sing it's praises a little digging soon reveals that the car has been miles away from the reliability you'd expect from a modern car that hasn't been interfered with.
My brother has converted or had converted a number of vehicles with varying levels of misfortune, and they are always miles more problematic than my unconverted cars. Cooling system issues seem to be particularly prevalent, as well as long standing and impossible to resolve issues with poor running. Aftersales support from the installers and manufacturers could generously be described as "patchy".
It does seem pretty obvious that a system fitted by "some bloke" and calibrated to your car by "some bloke" who has a big book of excuses for when the car fks up is going to give a lot more trouble than the original fuel delivery system designed, calibrated, and tested by thousands of engineers and sold by a company who has to take liability for any issues. Unless an LPG converted car was seriously cheap I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, nor would I want to rely on one as my only car.
don't talk crap mate..My brother has converted or had converted a number of vehicles with varying levels of misfortune, and they are always miles more problematic than my unconverted cars. Cooling system issues seem to be particularly prevalent, as well as long standing and impossible to resolve issues with poor running. Aftersales support from the installers and manufacturers could generously be described as "patchy".
It does seem pretty obvious that a system fitted by "some bloke" and calibrated to your car by "some bloke" who has a big book of excuses for when the car f
ks up is going to give a lot more trouble than the original fuel delivery system designed, calibrated, and tested by thousands of engineers and sold by a company who has to take liability for any issues. Unless an LPG converted car was seriously cheap I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, nor would I want to rely on one as my only car.Edited by dme123 on Thursday 21st July 16:28
I have had LPG on all of my cars, with most I have done your said 100k+ on the LPG System alone, my dad has had numerous lpg cars which have covered more way more than that on lpg , infact a third of our country petrol cars have LPG system and It's really rare to find someone who has trouble with them.. It's around £450-500 for a decent lpg system here..
However from my experience and others I have heard from, the Service Stations in UK are just damn useless at doing anything to your car.. and will mess up your car more often than fix it. so that might be the problem that they just haven't been properly installed..
I would trust and choose LPG car ( which I have converted myself) over diesel car any day of the week!
Would I buy a car which already has LPG installed?
Depends.. If it's a seriously cheap car ( under 1k) and if the system is rather fresh, than yes..
If it's 10k car, No I would stay away and buy just a petrol car and convert it myself.
itaa said:
don't talk crap mate..
I have had LPG on all of my cars, with most I have done your said 100k+ on the LPG System alone, my dad has had numerous lpg cars which have covered more way more than that on lpg , infact a third of our country petrol cars have LPG system and It's really rare to find someone who has trouble with them.. It's around £450-500 for a decent lpg system here..
However from my experience and others I have heard from, the Service Stations in UK are just damn useless at doing anything to your car.. and will mess up your car more often than fix it. so that might be the problem that they just haven't been properly installed..
I would trust and choose LPG car ( which I have converted myself) over diesel car any day of the week!
Would I buy a car which already has LPG installed?
Depends.. If it's a seriously cheap car ( under 1k) and if the system is rather fresh, than yes..
If it's 10k car, No I would stay away and buy just a petrol car and convert it myself.
Aren't you the quarrelsome troll who joins every single thread to build some straw man rubbish to have some thinly veiled stab at the UK?I have had LPG on all of my cars, with most I have done your said 100k+ on the LPG System alone, my dad has had numerous lpg cars which have covered more way more than that on lpg , infact a third of our country petrol cars have LPG system and It's really rare to find someone who has trouble with them.. It's around £450-500 for a decent lpg system here..
However from my experience and others I have heard from, the Service Stations in UK are just damn useless at doing anything to your car.. and will mess up your car more often than fix it. so that might be the problem that they just haven't been properly installed..
I would trust and choose LPG car ( which I have converted myself) over diesel car any day of the week!
Would I buy a car which already has LPG installed?
Depends.. If it's a seriously cheap car ( under 1k) and if the system is rather fresh, than yes..
If it's 10k car, No I would stay away and buy just a petrol car and convert it myself.
Judging from the nonsense you have spouted in every single thread I've seen you in only a complete imbecile would do anything based on you claimed experience.
To address your points it's worth remembering that OEMs themselves have sold gas converted cars directly - Vauxhall and Volvo both spring to mind. All quickly developed a reputation for tragic reliability and the stopped selling them after a couple of years. Not exactly a testament to the robustness of the technology. But hey, maybe I'm another cowardly/inept/stupid Brit for not wanting to waste my time with some heath robinson s
t because it works for people in the 3rd world.What people in various parts of the world use to fuel their cars is almost entirely based on the local economics or government tax regime. Nobody uses diesel in the UK except for financial reasons, and I suspect the same is for LPG wherever you are. When given free choice and where money is not so tight there is only one fuel that anyone uses for passenger cars. They run them on all sorts of s
t in Cuba, for example, but that's a poor reason to echo their fuel choices in the UK.Edited by dme123 on Sunday 24th July 13:07
1Addicted said:
I've spent some considerable time trying to find my Dad a Mercedes E55 AMG W210. I've viewed many, most described as original or immaculate but have turned out to be barried up, poorly repaired or in disrepair.
There have only been two that have been worth my time. One which was top money and showroom condition, but the owner decided to keep it and then this one, a fairly high miler but in good exterior/interior condition with nothing I cannot sort myself...only it has been LPG converted and for that matter has run solely on LPG for at least the last 7yrs.
Where's utterpiffle?There have only been two that have been worth my time. One which was top money and showroom condition, but the owner decided to keep it and then this one, a fairly high miler but in good exterior/interior condition with nothing I cannot sort myself...only it has been LPG converted and for that matter has run solely on LPG for at least the last 7yrs.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... - E55 on LPG after E430 on LPG.
dme123 said:
Aren't you the quarrelsome troll who joins every single thread to build some straw man rubbish to have some thinly veiled stab at the UK?
Judging from the nonsense you have spouted in every single thread I've seen you in onl y a complete imbecile would do anything based on you claimed experience.
To address your points it's worth remembering that OEMs themselves have sold gas converted cars directly - Vauxhall and Volvo both spring to mind. All quickly developed a reputation for tragic reliability and the stopped selling them after a couple of years. Not exactly a testament to the robustness of the technology. But hey, maybe I'm another cowardly/inept/stupid Brit for not wanting to waste my time with some heath robinson st because it works for people in the 3rd world.
I had a 56 plate V70 that I did about 130k in, converted @ 10k with no issues, & still have an 03 plate factory built Astra on 154k miles that really does run like clockwork.Judging from the nonsense you have spouted in every single thread I've seen you in onl y a complete imbecile would do anything based on you claimed experience.
To address your points it's worth remembering that OEMs themselves have sold gas converted cars directly - Vauxhall and Volvo both spring to mind. All quickly developed a reputation for tragic reliability and the stopped selling them after a couple of years. Not exactly a testament to the robustness of the technology. But hey, maybe I'm another cowardly/inept/stupid Brit for not wanting to waste my time with some heath robinson s
t because it works for people in the 3rd world.Edited by dme123 on Sunday 24th July 13:02
Yes the manufacturers were s
te at fixing them, but find a good specialist like I did & there's no problem.From what I could establish when I converted the Volvo they stopped building them because they were not a strong seller here anyway.
Not saying there are not Trolls here, but do you actually have 1st hand experience with an LPG vehicle or is it the usual 'my mate said' BS that's quite prevalent on any non petrol based thread?
Jim AK said:
I had a 56 plate V70 that I did about 130k in, converted @ 10k with no issues, & still have an 03 plate factory built Astra on 154k miles that really does run like clockwork.
Yes the manufacturers were ste at fixing them, but find a good specialist like I did & there's no problem.
From what I could establish when I converted the Volvo they stopped building them because they were not a strong seller here anyway.
Not saying there are not Trolls here, but do you actually have 1st hand experience with an LPG vehicle or is it the usual 'my mate said' BS that's quite prevalent on any non petrol based thread?
I labelled the poster as a troll more down to his previous contributions. He's like 300bhp/ton but with a big dose of rudeness and aggression mixed in with the ability to get into an argument in an empty room.Yes the manufacturers were s
te at fixing them, but find a good specialist like I did & there's no problem.From what I could establish when I converted the Volvo they stopped building them because they were not a strong seller here anyway.
Not saying there are not Trolls here, but do you actually have 1st hand experience with an LPG vehicle or is it the usual 'my mate said' BS that's quite prevalent on any non petrol based thread?
As I said my brother has had a series of disasters with his, couple of other people I have known with patchy experience, and I did a lot of research a few years ago when running an XJ12 for 30,000 miles a year was getting a bit silly. While I could find plenty of 1st and 2nd hand experience of problems I found almost NO 1st hand experience of good experience over what I consider to be proper mileage (30k PA for at least 100k, AFTER the conversion). Usually when I did find someone who was pleased a little digging turned out that they were experiencing heavy confirmation bias and glossing over the problems they'd had and the extra service/maintenance costs. I came down on the side of "while it might be OK, I don't have the time or inclination to risk it". Downsized to the 4.0
I suspect if you were dead set on doing it a decent specialist would be essential, and if you can afford to run it on petrol then why bother with the added complexity? In my experience fuel costs are only around half the running costs of even a reliable car over high mileages.
ETA - I also spoke to a couple of specialists who were all very keen to harp on about how crap all the other people in the sector were while they were the only way to get a decent LPG conversion. Maybe a good sales tactic for their business but not a good sales tactic for LPG as a fuel choice.
Edited by dme123 on Sunday 24th July 13:32
Our company runs many lpg vehicles including a transit van and many rep cars covering big isn miles. No major issues at all over the years I can remember outside what you would expect. Many work hard too, the 4.2 patrol rarely goes out without a 3 axel trailer loaded to the gills. It's done 80k since conversion.
dme123 said:
itaa said:
don't talk crap mate..
I have had LPG on all of my cars, with most I have done your said 100k+ on the LPG System alone, my dad has had numerous lpg cars which have covered more way more than that on lpg , infact a third of our country petrol cars have LPG system and It's really rare to find someone who has trouble with them.. It's around £450-500 for a decent lpg system here..
However from my experience and others I have heard from, the Service Stations in UK are just damn useless at doing anything to your car.. and will mess up your car more often than fix it. so that might be the problem that they just haven't been properly installed..
I would trust and choose LPG car ( which I have converted myself) over diesel car any day of the week!
Would I buy a car which already has LPG installed?
Depends.. If it's a seriously cheap car ( under 1k) and if the system is rather fresh, than yes..
If it's 10k car, No I would stay away and buy just a petrol car and convert it myself.
Aren't you the quarrelsome troll who joins every single thread to build some straw man rubbish to have some thinly veiled stab at the UK?I have had LPG on all of my cars, with most I have done your said 100k+ on the LPG System alone, my dad has had numerous lpg cars which have covered more way more than that on lpg , infact a third of our country petrol cars have LPG system and It's really rare to find someone who has trouble with them.. It's around £450-500 for a decent lpg system here..
However from my experience and others I have heard from, the Service Stations in UK are just damn useless at doing anything to your car.. and will mess up your car more often than fix it. so that might be the problem that they just haven't been properly installed..
I would trust and choose LPG car ( which I have converted myself) over diesel car any day of the week!
Would I buy a car which already has LPG installed?
Depends.. If it's a seriously cheap car ( under 1k) and if the system is rather fresh, than yes..
If it's 10k car, No I would stay away and buy just a petrol car and convert it myself.
Judging from the nonsense you have spouted in every single thread I've seen you in only a complete imbecile would do anything based on you claimed experience.
I would have a car LPG converted myself, but I'd be wary of buying one ready converted because I'd be concerned the car had been maintained similarly economically.
irish boy said:
Our company runs many lpg vehicles including a transit van and many rep cars covering big isn miles. No major issues at all over the years I can remember outside what you would expect. Many work hard too, the 4.2 patrol rarely goes out without a 3 axel trailer loaded to the gills. It's done 80k since conversion.
May I ask where you are and who carried out/maintains the conversion? On the patrol it was installed by Holmes motors in Belfast. A prins system. He has unfortunately passed away since and automotive gas services in Portadown now do all our work.
We've just replaced it with another low mile one, which we'll probably run to 200k plus.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
We've just replaced it with another low mile one, which we'll probably run to 200k plus.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I had a 4.6 V8 P38a on LPG. Servicing costs were negligible, about £60 a year.
I put 40k miles on it in 3 years. Only problems with the LPG system was a couple of fuel hoses needed replacing at a cost of £35, and a remap for the LPG at £25... so one years service was £120 instead of £60.
Being a 4.6 it did blow a head gasket, but that had nothing to do with LPG as it was a miracle that it was running the original head gasket at 100k miles anyway. Some of the 4.6's were lucky to run the original head gasket to 50k miles.
I put 40k miles on it in 3 years. Only problems with the LPG system was a couple of fuel hoses needed replacing at a cost of £35, and a remap for the LPG at £25... so one years service was £120 instead of £60.
Being a 4.6 it did blow a head gasket, but that had nothing to do with LPG as it was a miracle that it was running the original head gasket at 100k miles anyway. Some of the 4.6's were lucky to run the original head gasket to 50k miles.
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