Toyota's production fuel cell car
Discussion
http://www.toyota.com/fuelcell/
I'm interested to know what people think of this.
On the one hand it seems odd for Toyota to spend so much resources developing a car for which there is so little refuelling infrastructure available (it runs on hydrogen). Elon Musk has said that he thinks fuel cells are "a stupid idea" and that electric cars are obviously the future.
On the other hand, Toyota are not stupid, and they certainly have a track record of innovation and of taking well-judged technical risks (e.g. hybrids). Perhaps they see something which I don't.
I had an interesting chat with a Toyota dealer a while ago. He said that Toyota don't see electric cars as the future because they reckon that there is no known improvement in battery technology that can close the gap with ICE powered cars, all things considered (energy density, recharge time, durability etc.). There is simply nothing on the horizon. They may have a point. We have grown used to applying Moore's law type thinking to electronic devices, where everything gets smaller and better every year. Sometimes it isn't possible.
So, is this destined to be a niche car, or will we all be driving these in 20 years' time?
I'm interested to know what people think of this.
On the one hand it seems odd for Toyota to spend so much resources developing a car for which there is so little refuelling infrastructure available (it runs on hydrogen). Elon Musk has said that he thinks fuel cells are "a stupid idea" and that electric cars are obviously the future.
On the other hand, Toyota are not stupid, and they certainly have a track record of innovation and of taking well-judged technical risks (e.g. hybrids). Perhaps they see something which I don't.
I had an interesting chat with a Toyota dealer a while ago. He said that Toyota don't see electric cars as the future because they reckon that there is no known improvement in battery technology that can close the gap with ICE powered cars, all things considered (energy density, recharge time, durability etc.). There is simply nothing on the horizon. They may have a point. We have grown used to applying Moore's law type thinking to electronic devices, where everything gets smaller and better every year. Sometimes it isn't possible.
So, is this destined to be a niche car, or will we all be driving these in 20 years' time?
If there were only hydrogen and plug-in cars then both would serve different purposes, plug in cars would be for commuters end consumers who have regular journeys of less than 300-400 miles or whatever, fuel cells would be for lorries, taxis, people who drive from London to Glasgow every other week.
Then again if battery technology improves and the 300 mile range on a Tesla becomes a standard 1000 mile range with 30 minute charging time hydrogen cars would be screwed.
Then again if battery technology improves and the 300 mile range on a Tesla becomes a standard 1000 mile range with 30 minute charging time hydrogen cars would be screwed.
It's a lovely idea but I just can't see anyone being willing to pay for the necessary infrastructure.
Electricity already has a national network which can be fed by any number of different sources, and is used by every person and business in the land. The network is therefore routinely extended / tweaked / reinforced for all sorts of reasons including industrial processes, new housing and new demand patterns, and the cost can be recouped over the bills paid by the entire population.
Hydrogen for vehicles would be a single-purpose network, and would have to be done from scratch. There is also the question of where one gets the hydrogen from. Fuel cells require hydrogen of extreme purity.
Some thoughtful and detailed stuff (by Wikipedia standards) here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
Electricity already has a national network which can be fed by any number of different sources, and is used by every person and business in the land. The network is therefore routinely extended / tweaked / reinforced for all sorts of reasons including industrial processes, new housing and new demand patterns, and the cost can be recouped over the bills paid by the entire population.
Hydrogen for vehicles would be a single-purpose network, and would have to be done from scratch. There is also the question of where one gets the hydrogen from. Fuel cells require hydrogen of extreme purity.
Some thoughtful and detailed stuff (by Wikipedia standards) here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
Toyota are a big company.
They take pride in being "forward thinking" in terms of their future vehicle development R&D.
They took a massive (and massively expensive) gamble on the Prius way back, and it paid off
So, they are investigating "fuel cells" simply because they can. No one knows what the future is, or how the energy infrastructure will evolve, so, assuming you have the R&D budget for it then go for it!
(it's also possible to see this as "marketing" to a large degree. And compared to buying telly time for millions and millions of pounds for 30sec, spending say £10M a year on R&D is sensible)
They take pride in being "forward thinking" in terms of their future vehicle development R&D.
They took a massive (and massively expensive) gamble on the Prius way back, and it paid off
So, they are investigating "fuel cells" simply because they can. No one knows what the future is, or how the energy infrastructure will evolve, so, assuming you have the R&D budget for it then go for it!
(it's also possible to see this as "marketing" to a large degree. And compared to buying telly time for millions and millions of pounds for 30sec, spending say £10M a year on R&D is sensible)
Honda is doing the same, although I only saw the current concept (below) in the showroom in Tokyo this Spring. I can't remember the details on production model timescales. I think Honda is on 3rd gen FC now.
You can just see the FC to the right on the photo (it's that thing that looks like a silver desktop PC case).
Someone told me that the density of Japan's cities makes plug-ins quite tricky to sell, so Japan may be more ready to develop the FCEV infrastructure.
You can just see the FC to the right on the photo (it's that thing that looks like a silver desktop PC case).
Someone told me that the density of Japan's cities makes plug-ins quite tricky to sell, so Japan may be more ready to develop the FCEV infrastructure.
I readily admit that Toyota's record of backing successful long term development gives me pause for thought but I still think they may have got this one wrong.
I was briefly involved on the technical side of the fuel cell industry and suspect there is still a way to go before the costs are reasonable and the durability is acceptable. Their sensitivity to poisoning with impurities and other vulnerabilities may make the worries that some have about battery longevity look like very small beer. Of course the cars will also need a substantial battery in any case so in some ways it is worry on top of worry.
Then there is the question of the hydrogen supply. Energy intensive to obtain, difficult and costly to purify, tricky to transport and store, there are challenges aplenty.
Compare that to battery electric cars - extremely simplicity, infrastructure basically already in place worldwide, battery costs coming down and performance/range becoming very acceptable.
For me, electric cars are getting to the point where I could use one as an only vehicle. If I have to stop every 200 miles for 40 minutes or so on long journeys I can accept it and at all other times the convenience of getting into a pre-warmed/pre-cooled car that is full every time I leave my drive will be most welcome.
I was briefly involved on the technical side of the fuel cell industry and suspect there is still a way to go before the costs are reasonable and the durability is acceptable. Their sensitivity to poisoning with impurities and other vulnerabilities may make the worries that some have about battery longevity look like very small beer. Of course the cars will also need a substantial battery in any case so in some ways it is worry on top of worry.
Then there is the question of the hydrogen supply. Energy intensive to obtain, difficult and costly to purify, tricky to transport and store, there are challenges aplenty.
Compare that to battery electric cars - extremely simplicity, infrastructure basically already in place worldwide, battery costs coming down and performance/range becoming very acceptable.
For me, electric cars are getting to the point where I could use one as an only vehicle. If I have to stop every 200 miles for 40 minutes or so on long journeys I can accept it and at all other times the convenience of getting into a pre-warmed/pre-cooled car that is full every time I leave my drive will be most welcome.
McWigglebum4th said:
I really don't want to be going to a hydrogen station when i have a perfectly good plug point at my house
Agree. The electricity network is already everywhere and the number of charging points keeps growing. It seems to me that the big remaining hurdles are long charge times and limited range. The latter is being solved (c.f. Tesla Model S) and the former can be solved with a big enough recharge network, fast charging and a change in usage patterns (park your car and leave it to charge rather than going to a fuel station).Max_Torque said:
...they are investigating "fuel cells" simply because they can. No one knows what the future is, or how the energy infrastructure will evolve, so, assuming you have the R&D budget for it then go for it!
True. I wonder whether this is indeed a technology showcase or whether Toyota really do see EVs as a dead end. They do seem to have been quiet on the pure EV front.EskimoArapaho said:
Honda is doing the same, although I only saw the current concept (below) in the showroom in Tokyo this Spring. I can't remember the details on production model timescales. I think Honda is on 3rd gen FC now.
You can just see the FC to the right on the photo (it's that thing that looks like a silver desktop PC case).
Forget fuel cells, if the next Insight looks like that I'm buying one You can just see the FC to the right on the photo (it's that thing that looks like a silver desktop PC case).
EskimoArapaho said:
Honda is doing the same, although I only saw the current concept (below) in the showroom in Tokyo this Spring. I can't remember the details on production model timescales. I think Honda is on 3rd gen FC now.
You can just see the FC to the right on the photo (it's that thing that looks like a silver desktop PC case).
Someone told me that the density of Japan's cities makes plug-ins quite tricky to sell, so Japan may be more ready to develop the FCEV infrastructure.
as practical as a chocolate fireguardYou can just see the FC to the right on the photo (it's that thing that looks like a silver desktop PC case).
Someone told me that the density of Japan's cities makes plug-ins quite tricky to sell, so Japan may be more ready to develop the FCEV infrastructure.
just convert a Mondeo or Avensis please!
Upatdawn said:
as practical as a chocolate fireguard
just convert a Mondeo or Avensis please!
It's a concept, to get press inches. I like it, the rear end is like a toned down version of the nutty Citroen GT concept. just convert a Mondeo or Avensis please!
They already sell (or rather, lease) a regular FCEV, the Clarity FCX: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_FCX_Clarity
When fuel cell vehicles were all the rage in Detroit back in the turn of the century, the word on the street that I heard was that an FCV had a very similar range problem to the EV's of that time. The only advantage that an FCV would have back then would be refuelling over recharging time. They were also horribly complicated and expensive to boot.
Having said that, from my research into battery technologies for UAV's, fuel cells that are available have 2.5-3x the energy density of the current generation Li-Po batteries. I don't know how it scales though.
There's a company here in Aus that has been developing fuel cells for domestic and industrial CHP applications. They've had some success in Germany - land of the green incentive - but not significantly elsewhere, at least last time I looked.
I personally don't see a big future for FCVs, but exploring this is still worthwhile, especially since everyone and his dog now believes that Toyota lead the field in future tech. That's never a bad look for an auto maker trying to sell its current tech.
Having said that, from my research into battery technologies for UAV's, fuel cells that are available have 2.5-3x the energy density of the current generation Li-Po batteries. I don't know how it scales though.
There's a company here in Aus that has been developing fuel cells for domestic and industrial CHP applications. They've had some success in Germany - land of the green incentive - but not significantly elsewhere, at least last time I looked.
I personally don't see a big future for FCVs, but exploring this is still worthwhile, especially since everyone and his dog now believes that Toyota lead the field in future tech. That's never a bad look for an auto maker trying to sell its current tech.
Lowtimer said:
It's a lovely idea but I just can't see anyone being willing to pay for the necessary infrastructure.
Electricity already has a national network which can be fed by any number of different sources, and is used by every person and business in the land. The network is therefore routinely extended / tweaked / reinforced for all sorts of reasons including industrial processes, new housing and new demand patterns, and the cost can be recouped over the bills paid by the entire population.
Hydrogen for vehicles would be a single-purpose network, and would have to be done from scratch. There is also the question of where one gets the hydrogen from. Fuel cells require hydrogen of extreme purity.
Some thoughtful and detailed stuff (by Wikipedia standards) here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
There is a massive nation wide network for delivering hydrogen. The challenge is a cost effective solution for splitting the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen atom. Electricity already has a national network which can be fed by any number of different sources, and is used by every person and business in the land. The network is therefore routinely extended / tweaked / reinforced for all sorts of reasons including industrial processes, new housing and new demand patterns, and the cost can be recouped over the bills paid by the entire population.
Hydrogen for vehicles would be a single-purpose network, and would have to be done from scratch. There is also the question of where one gets the hydrogen from. Fuel cells require hydrogen of extreme purity.
Some thoughtful and detailed stuff (by Wikipedia standards) here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
Are you suggesting everyone should use their domestic electricity to electrolyse their domestic water supply and put the hydrogen into a fuel cell to turn back into electricity to power their car?
Rather than using their domestic electricity supply to charge their car battery directly?
Obtaining hydrogen by cracking water in every home is probably the least practicable way of obtaining the huge quantities of hydrogen needs to power a nation's personal transport.
Rather than using their domestic electricity supply to charge their car battery directly?
Obtaining hydrogen by cracking water in every home is probably the least practicable way of obtaining the huge quantities of hydrogen needs to power a nation's personal transport.
Lowtimer said:
Are you suggesting everyone should use their domestic electricity to electrolyse their domestic water supply and put the hydrogen into a fuel cell to turn back into electricity to power their car?
Rather than using their domestic electricity supply to charge their car battery directly?
Obtaining hydrogen by cracking water in every home is probably the least practicable way of obtaining the huge quantities of hydrogen needs to power a nation's personal transport.
There are alternative methods for generating hydrogen from water. Rather than using their domestic electricity supply to charge their car battery directly?
Obtaining hydrogen by cracking water in every home is probably the least practicable way of obtaining the huge quantities of hydrogen needs to power a nation's personal transport.
That's been the case historically but is not necessarily unsolvable.
This German research is relevant to the storage pressure problem.
http://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/german-researchers...
Alternatively there's the pre-war solution which is don't compress it at all (also known as the Corporal Jones method)
This German research is relevant to the storage pressure problem.
http://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/german-researchers...
Alternatively there's the pre-war solution which is don't compress it at all (also known as the Corporal Jones method)
Edited by Lowtimer on Saturday 12th July 09:56
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