World's largest offshore windfarm starts generating
Discussion
Diderot said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Nearly 19GW of Gas currently, that must be a lot of gas, decent chunk of coal and that con biomass too.
That's my issue with a million wind turbines.
And indeed, when the wind doesn’t blow, can we remind ourselves of the 0 times tables? That's my issue with a million wind turbines.
The progress since 2012 at an annual level really shows the progress made to date in moving away from coal. Now that coal is pretty much finished (just one remaining coal fired plant now), the additional capacity from wind will continue to chip away at the amount of gas used.
2012:
2023:
Reduction in coal average annual generation from 15.63GW in 2012 down to 0.23GW in 2023 is pretty impressive in such a short time frame. Helped obviously by the reduction in demand, but also by a more then quadrupling of wind generation from 2.00 GW in 2012 to 8.26GW average in 2023.
When it's less windy we can fall back on gas to top up, but it makes sense to get as much average as possible from wind.
Agree with the above, it makes absolute sense to increase wind and solar as they pay for themselves in cost and environmental terms reasonably quickly and are from that point forwards, truly renewable energy - overall nearly as clean and green as nuclear and actually more affordable apparently. Although on balance I would rather see more nuclear than continue reliance on gas to 'bridge the gaps', nuclear is the only fuel form of power generation that is roughly as rapid to react to demand as gas is.
Also important to remember that new wind/solar is coming online roughly at the same rate as EV's are increasing, the plan being that EV's can automatically charge when there is excess renewable energy feeding into the grid and, thus, be far less likely to need to charge during low points. This effectively turns EV's into a giant battery attached to the grid to help balance out the peaks and troughs.
Solar is also more consistent than most people think. Even on a dull day solar farms can still contribute a useful level of power.
none of this is perfect just yet of course, we're still missing affordable and clean mass storage of power - ideally we need grid attached batteries that can backup the entire grid for at least 30 days if we're ever going to get to 100% renewable power generation, we simply don't have that technology just yet. We are however, leading the way. It's not often you can say that about the UK these days!
Also important to remember that new wind/solar is coming online roughly at the same rate as EV's are increasing, the plan being that EV's can automatically charge when there is excess renewable energy feeding into the grid and, thus, be far less likely to need to charge during low points. This effectively turns EV's into a giant battery attached to the grid to help balance out the peaks and troughs.
Solar is also more consistent than most people think. Even on a dull day solar farms can still contribute a useful level of power.
none of this is perfect just yet of course, we're still missing affordable and clean mass storage of power - ideally we need grid attached batteries that can backup the entire grid for at least 30 days if we're ever going to get to 100% renewable power generation, we simply don't have that technology just yet. We are however, leading the way. It's not often you can say that about the UK these days!
ChocolateFrog said:
Not really.
We're only usually exporting to Ireland. Quite to see any of the other interconnects negative whenever I look, which is most days.
Well if you've never seen it then it must be true We're only usually exporting to Ireland. Quite to see any of the other interconnects negative whenever I look, which is most days.
Handily, here's an example of a couple of other countries happening right now. We were exporting to Belgium earlier too.
plfrench said:
It's pretty unlikely for there to be zero wind at all, especially out at sea and given the spread of the location of the turbines. The lowest weekly average over the last year was 2.81GW.
The progress since 2012 at an annual level really shows the progress made to date in moving away from coal. Now that coal is pretty much finished (just one remaining coal fired plant now), the additional capacity from wind will continue to chip away at the amount of gas used.
2012:
2023:
Reduction in coal average annual generation from 15.63GW in 2012 down to 0.23GW in 2023 is pretty impressive in such a short time frame. Helped obviously by the reduction in demand, but also by a more then quadrupling of wind generation from 2.00 GW in 2012 to 8.26GW average in 2023.
When it's less windy we can fall back on gas to top up, but it makes sense to get as much average as possible from wind.
There will also be the excess that is exported for credits for importing when required. Hence why there is no panic re storage. The progress since 2012 at an annual level really shows the progress made to date in moving away from coal. Now that coal is pretty much finished (just one remaining coal fired plant now), the additional capacity from wind will continue to chip away at the amount of gas used.
2012:
2023:
Reduction in coal average annual generation from 15.63GW in 2012 down to 0.23GW in 2023 is pretty impressive in such a short time frame. Helped obviously by the reduction in demand, but also by a more then quadrupling of wind generation from 2.00 GW in 2012 to 8.26GW average in 2023.
When it's less windy we can fall back on gas to top up, but it makes sense to get as much average as possible from wind.
plfrench said:
Diderot said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Nearly 19GW of Gas currently, that must be a lot of gas, decent chunk of coal and that con biomass too.
That's my issue with a million wind turbines.
And indeed, when the wind doesn’t blow, can we remind ourselves of the 0 times tables? That's my issue with a million wind turbines.
The progress since 2012 at an annual level really shows the progress made to date in moving away from coal. Now that coal is pretty much finished (just one remaining coal fired plant now), the additional capacity from wind will continue to chip away at the amount of gas used.
2012:
2023:
Reduction in coal average annual generation from 15.63GW in 2012 down to 0.23GW in 2023 is pretty impressive in such a short time frame. Helped obviously by the reduction in demand, but also by a more then quadrupling of wind generation from 2.00 GW in 2012 to 8.26GW average in 2023.
When it's less windy we can fall back on gas to top up, but it makes sense to get as much average as possible from wind.
TheDeuce said:
none of this is perfect just yet of course, we're still missing affordable and clean mass storage of power - ideally we need grid attached batteries that can backup the entire grid for at least 30 days if we're ever going to get to 100% renewable power generation, we simply don't have that technology just yet. We are however, leading the way. It's not often you can say that about the UK these days!
30 days storage just isn't going to happen, that's in the region of a couple dozen TWh. Largest battery banks are 1GWh, pumped storage is a few 10s of GWh, maybe.If the UK can get a meaningful amount of floating wind online then we can lead the world with many, many countries keen to embrace it.
Evanivitch said:
TheDeuce said:
none of this is perfect just yet of course, we're still missing affordable and clean mass storage of power - ideally we need grid attached batteries that can backup the entire grid for at least 30 days if we're ever going to get to 100% renewable power generation, we simply don't have that technology just yet. We are however, leading the way. It's not often you can say that about the UK these days!
30 days storage just isn't going to happen, that's in the region of a couple dozen TWh. Largest battery banks are 1GWh, pumped storage is a few 10s of GWh, maybe.If the UK can get a meaningful amount of floating wind online then we can lead the world with many, many countries keen to embrace it.
But that is, as I said, a long way off if ever. In the mean time - yes, we should lead in renewables and also lead in smart grid management technologies. We are leading in those areas.
TheDeuce said:
I did say we don't have such technology just yet. The solution in storage terms could be solid state batteries in peoples homes - they can withstand tens of thousand of charge cycles with virtually no degradation and can charge, theoretically, as fast as power can be supplied.
But that is, as I said, a long way off if ever. In the mean time - yes, we should lead in renewables and also lead in smart grid management technologies. We are leading in those areas.
I can’t comment re smart management technologies, is that pricing by demand? Or pricing to reduce demand? But that is, as I said, a long way off if ever. In the mean time - yes, we should lead in renewables and also lead in smart grid management technologies. We are leading in those areas.
Do we lead in renewables? Germany has 66Gw installed wind and 69Gw of installed solar, right now that investment is producing the sum total of not very much, another economy relying on coal to keep the lights on. Let me guess, they’re investing in even more renewables with even less reliance on fossil fuels to reduce costs and smash those green targets?
Bet they are wishing that big wave had never touched down in Fukushima.
plfrench said:
Diderot said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Nearly 19GW of Gas currently, that must be a lot of gas, decent chunk of coal and that con biomass too.
That's my issue with a million wind turbines.
And indeed, when the wind doesn’t blow, can we remind ourselves of the 0 times tables? That's my issue with a million wind turbines.
The progress since 2012 at an annual level really shows the progress made to date in moving away from coal. Now that coal is pretty much finished (just one remaining coal fired plant now), the additional capacity from wind will continue to chip away at the amount of gas used.
2012:
2023:
Reduction in coal average annual generation from 15.63GW in 2012 down to 0.23GW in 2023 is pretty impressive in such a short time frame. Helped obviously by the reduction in demand, but also by a more then quadrupling of wind generation from 2.00 GW in 2012 to 8.26GW average in 2023.
When it's less windy we can fall back on gas to top up, but it makes sense to get as much average as possible from wind.
Essarell said:
TheDeuce said:
I did say we don't have such technology just yet. The solution in storage terms could be solid state batteries in peoples homes - they can withstand tens of thousand of charge cycles with virtually no degradation and can charge, theoretically, as fast as power can be supplied.
But that is, as I said, a long way off if ever. In the mean time - yes, we should lead in renewables and also lead in smart grid management technologies. We are leading in those areas.
I can’t comment re smart management technologies, is that pricing by demand? Or pricing to reduce demand? But that is, as I said, a long way off if ever. In the mean time - yes, we should lead in renewables and also lead in smart grid management technologies. We are leading in those areas.
Do we lead in renewables? Germany has 66Gw installed wind and 69Gw of installed solar, right now that investment is producing the sum total of not very much, another economy relying on coal to keep the lights on. Let me guess, they’re investing in even more renewables with even less reliance on fossil fuels to reduce costs and smash those green targets?
Bet they are wishing that big wave had never touched down in Fukushima.
Smart grid management can be used, like most smart things, in several ways. Currently power is cheaper to those that are prepared to opt in to allow companies such as Octopus to remotely control their EV charging to make the best use of renewable energy that would previously have been wasted, all sorts of other devices including entire homes with suitable power storage could be controlled the same way. It could of course also be used in the future to charge people more for wasting energy during low grid feed in periods, if there were ways to detect that wastage. But the point is it's smart, it's instant to react and balances the grid in a way that makes the most efficient use of energy feed in at any given time. Octopus are already selling the systems they have developed and continue to develop to overseas grid management and supply companies.
TheDeuce said:
In terms of % of renewable and % of energy independence we're a leader for sure. Energy independence is the big target, achieve that and a bargaining chip used against us when we make trade deals is removed.
Smart grid management can be used, like most smart things, in several ways. Currently power is cheaper to those that are prepared to opt in to allow companies such as Octopus to remotely control their EV charging to make the best use of renewable energy that would previously have been wasted, all sorts of other devices including entire homes with suitable power storage could be controlled the same way. It could of course also be used in the future to charge people more for wasting energy during low grid feed in periods, if there were ways to detect that wastage. But the point is it's smart, it's instant to react and balances the grid in a way that makes the most efficient use of energy feed in at any given time. Octopus are already selling the systems they have developed and continue to develop to overseas grid management and supply companies.
How would that work towards manufacturing? Production schedules planned many months in advance scuppered due to punitive utility costs. It could be possible to control / nudge / influence domestic usage, has the roll out of smart meters increased efficiency or does the novelty of self policing energy consumption wear off and users just use what they use ignoring the cost? Smart grid management can be used, like most smart things, in several ways. Currently power is cheaper to those that are prepared to opt in to allow companies such as Octopus to remotely control their EV charging to make the best use of renewable energy that would previously have been wasted, all sorts of other devices including entire homes with suitable power storage could be controlled the same way. It could of course also be used in the future to charge people more for wasting energy during low grid feed in periods, if there were ways to detect that wastage. But the point is it's smart, it's instant to react and balances the grid in a way that makes the most efficient use of energy feed in at any given time. Octopus are already selling the systems they have developed and continue to develop to overseas grid management and supply companies.
Essarell said:
I’m guessing you mean me? I’ve never said Coal was the answer, i have however suggested continuing to use coal to smooth the transition to renewables. Renewables that actually deliver, not spend 20 years building wind turbines (circa 10000) on land to discover that they don’t work and that we should have waited and developed as we are now into (the claim is more reliable) offshore wind. Or not rush into contracts that lo and behold are good for the generator but turn out to be a bad deal for the customer / consumer. We’ve closed down perfectly serviceable power stations to now find ourselves reliant on the French or Norway just to try and keep the lights on.
Use the profit from the available resources that we have to upgrade the grid ready for the future instead of what we currently have is power being generated but no ability to move it round the country. Surely that sounds sensible?
Why can’t we sell India, China or Poland coal? Or is that a luxury only afforded to the Americans or Australians? They also have climate change policies but somehow seem to be a little more tolerant to emissions when it means a boost to their respective economies.
I don’t see the need to rush the transition to renewables, as is plain to see we lead the world in economic mutilation and for what? Some of the most expensive energy prices in the world.
We're not rushing. This has been 30 years in the making.Use the profit from the available resources that we have to upgrade the grid ready for the future instead of what we currently have is power being generated but no ability to move it round the country. Surely that sounds sensible?
Why can’t we sell India, China or Poland coal? Or is that a luxury only afforded to the Americans or Australians? They also have climate change policies but somehow seem to be a little more tolerant to emissions when it means a boost to their respective economies.
I don’t see the need to rush the transition to renewables, as is plain to see we lead the world in economic mutilation and for what? Some of the most expensive energy prices in the world.
You mentioned working on a Scottish onshore wind farm in 1997. A farm of that vintage such as Hagshaw Hill had 26x 0.6 MW turbines. Those original turbines have been decommissioned at the end of their 25+ year life this year and site is now being repowered with 14x 5.7 MW turbines. 10 times more power almost.
And the latest generation of 15 MW offshore turbines delivers 30s more. Hence a single one of these beasts can generate as many MWh in 60 hours as the entire Hagshaw Hill farm generated in its 28 year life. But we needed the experience, the data and the lessons from all those earlier projects to get to where we are today.
You have to learn to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run. And we're pushing the bounds of the technology further today: bigger, further offshore and floating.
And it's not just the technology either. We've iterated on financing mechanisms, gradually building the market capacity to develop these projects without subsidy.
As for why we don't export coal - have you forgotten the 1980s? The few remaining coal mines that survived privatisation nearly all went bust because they simply could not complete with imports.
2022 had 4TWh of wind curtailment in 2022.
this gets much higher as wind capacity increases as long as we don't have viable storage. as wind power gets towards 50GW, lots of that in much more viable areas and more solar comes online that can't be curtailed, we really need mass storage solutions.
V2x is getting more obvious, and there are loads of proposed solutions that will be commercialised.
this gets much higher as wind capacity increases as long as we don't have viable storage. as wind power gets towards 50GW, lots of that in much more viable areas and more solar comes online that can't be curtailed, we really need mass storage solutions.
V2x is getting more obvious, and there are loads of proposed solutions that will be commercialised.
Essarell said:
TheDeuce said:
In terms of % of renewable and % of energy independence we're a leader for sure. Energy independence is the big target, achieve that and a bargaining chip used against us when we make trade deals is removed.
Smart grid management can be used, like most smart things, in several ways. Currently power is cheaper to those that are prepared to opt in to allow companies such as Octopus to remotely control their EV charging to make the best use of renewable energy that would previously have been wasted, all sorts of other devices including entire homes with suitable power storage could be controlled the same way. It could of course also be used in the future to charge people more for wasting energy during low grid feed in periods, if there were ways to detect that wastage. But the point is it's smart, it's instant to react and balances the grid in a way that makes the most efficient use of energy feed in at any given time. Octopus are already selling the systems they have developed and continue to develop to overseas grid management and supply companies.
How would that work towards manufacturing? Production schedules planned many months in advance scuppered due to punitive utility costs. It could be possible to control / nudge / influence domestic usage, has the roll out of smart meters increased efficiency or does the novelty of self policing energy consumption wear off and users just use what they use ignoring the cost? Smart grid management can be used, like most smart things, in several ways. Currently power is cheaper to those that are prepared to opt in to allow companies such as Octopus to remotely control their EV charging to make the best use of renewable energy that would previously have been wasted, all sorts of other devices including entire homes with suitable power storage could be controlled the same way. It could of course also be used in the future to charge people more for wasting energy during low grid feed in periods, if there were ways to detect that wastage. But the point is it's smart, it's instant to react and balances the grid in a way that makes the most efficient use of energy feed in at any given time. Octopus are already selling the systems they have developed and continue to develop to overseas grid management and supply companies.
This isn't about smart metres though, although they do enable a modest increase in smart grid management. It's more about devices (cars mostly right now, but other things planned) that can be centrally controlled to charge when it's most efficient from the grid perspective for them to be charged. No self policing is involved at all, you simply leave the relevant devices plugged in whenever you don't mind doing so, and if excess energy exists, it gets shunted into that device.
It's quite simply a way of putting excess grid energy somewhere it can be used, as opposed to wasting it as we have done for the entire time we have had the grid. Naturally, if you stop wasting a chunk of something you sell, the overall price of what you sell can be reduced and those that help you stop wasting it become valuable and should be encouraged with a discount.
tamore said:
2022 had 4TWh of wind curtailment in 2022.
this gets much higher as wind capacity increases as long as we don't have viable storage. as wind power gets towards 50GW, lots of that in much more viable areas and more solar comes online that can't be curtailed, we really need mass storage solutions.
V2x is getting more obvious, and there are loads of proposed solutions that will be commercialised.
Curtailment isn't happening because we have more supply than demand in the UK.this gets much higher as wind capacity increases as long as we don't have viable storage. as wind power gets towards 50GW, lots of that in much more viable areas and more solar comes online that can't be curtailed, we really need mass storage solutions.
V2x is getting more obvious, and there are loads of proposed solutions that will be commercialised.
It's happening because we have an abundance of wind in Scotland and a lack of infrastructure to transport that down to the high population areas in the South. The addition of new HVDC connections and connecting new generation further South is going some way to improve this. Some future wind will also be in new areas like Celtic sea.
Solar can be curtailed.
We don't even need V2x to help, tariffs like Octopus Intelligent can go some way to ensure we consume electricity when it's abundant and not just during fixed cheap periods.
Hill92 said:
We're not rushing. This has been 30 years in the making.
You mentioned working on a Scottish onshore wind farm in 1997. A farm of that vintage such as Hagshaw Hill had 26x 0.6 MW turbines. Those original turbines have been decommissioned at the end of their 25+ year life this year and site is now being repowered with 14x 5.7 MW turbines. 10 times more power almost.
And the latest generation of 15 MW offshore turbines delivers 30s more. Hence a single one of these beasts can generate as many MWh in 60 hours as the entire Hagshaw Hill farm generated in its 28 year life. But we needed the experience, the data and the lessons from all those earlier projects to get to where we are today.
You have to learn to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run. And we're pushing the bounds of the technology further today: bigger, further offshore and floating.
And it's not just the technology either. We've iterated on financing mechanisms, gradually building the market capacity to develop these projects without subsidy.
As for why we don't export coal - have you forgotten the 1980s? The few remaining coal mines that survived privatisation nearly all went bust because they simply could not complete with imports.
Woodhouse Colliery seems to be viable? You mentioned working on a Scottish onshore wind farm in 1997. A farm of that vintage such as Hagshaw Hill had 26x 0.6 MW turbines. Those original turbines have been decommissioned at the end of their 25+ year life this year and site is now being repowered with 14x 5.7 MW turbines. 10 times more power almost.
And the latest generation of 15 MW offshore turbines delivers 30s more. Hence a single one of these beasts can generate as many MWh in 60 hours as the entire Hagshaw Hill farm generated in its 28 year life. But we needed the experience, the data and the lessons from all those earlier projects to get to where we are today.
You have to learn to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run. And we're pushing the bounds of the technology further today: bigger, further offshore and floating.
And it's not just the technology either. We've iterated on financing mechanisms, gradually building the market capacity to develop these projects without subsidy.
As for why we don't export coal - have you forgotten the 1980s? The few remaining coal mines that survived privatisation nearly all went bust because they simply could not complete with imports.
As for the 80’s I vividly remember the miners strikes, seeing fleets of HGV’s heading out of our small town, windscreens protected by steel grating to presumably collect or deliver supplies to one of the local power stations. As a young boy walking to school it was like scene out of Mad Max. Scenes and divisions in our community that will hopefully never be seen again.
tamore said:
2022 had 4TWh of wind curtailment in 2022.
this gets much higher as wind capacity increases as long as we don't have viable storage. as wind power gets towards 50GW, lots of that in much more viable areas and more solar comes online that can't be curtailed, we really need mass storage solutions.
V2x is getting more obvious, and there are loads of proposed solutions that will be commercialised.
That really is the key - not V2x specifically but simply using EV's and any other attached device to store excess power one way or another. EV's can't harness all the power we ideally need to store but they can definitely harness a VERY useful chunk of it.this gets much higher as wind capacity increases as long as we don't have viable storage. as wind power gets towards 50GW, lots of that in much more viable areas and more solar comes online that can't be curtailed, we really need mass storage solutions.
V2x is getting more obvious, and there are loads of proposed solutions that will be commercialised.
In addition, there are loads of ways of using the excess power that is currently wasted one way or another with more smart, centralised control over when that power is used. Heat pumps are a good example - we all know they're very expensive because they use a lot of electricity... but if they were centrally controlled they could heat water in large cylinders in each equipped house at full power when there is a grid excess energy for dirt cheap, and when that's not the case, they could run at 30% power, still cheap, and simply maintain the temperature of the already heated water cylinder. Effectively turning the water cylinder into further grid attached energy storage.
It's getting centrally and smart control to be standardised and massively adopted that should be a target. It can then be applied to many things that effectively store energy one way or another. We can do more with less, which in turn allows us to make far more efficient use of renewable energy sources.
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