A major little word of warning re. EV conversions
Discussion
wisbech said:
GT6k said:
The regs always have grandfather rights so we accept 1960s risks with 1960s powerplant. If you want a 2020s powerplant then you should have 2020s crashworthiness. From a powerplant point of view it was always a target to get 100bhp out of an A-series and you had to have it screaming to get that whereas a BMW i3 motor will give you 170bhp every time you press the pedal. From a crashworthiness point of view even 1960s petrol tanks will take a degree of crush and if you skewer them they just leak while a battery will go bang. Current EV designs go to great lengths to protect the batteries with mid mounted armoured boxes whereas conversion like this typically have isolated unprotected battery modules to shoe horn them in.
Yep - this is the situation that caught the FAA and Boeing out with the 737MAX. 1960's airframe with 2010s powerplant, grandfathered in. bitsilly said:
An inspection was flagged as I could not specify the electric motors capacity in cc's.
[...] As we couldn't say how many cc's the motor had, it was passed to the Kit cars dept.
Ah right, thanks, that's interesting. Feels like it's basically impossible to avoid getting 'flagged' then if doing an EV conversion.[...] As we couldn't say how many cc's the motor had, it was passed to the Kit cars dept.
bitsilly said:
And finally, to get a mk1 Mini through IVA, I would need to remove the external weld seams, the external hinges, the window catches the bumpers and so on, in a way mainstream manufacturers would. And that is only the projections rule, there are many others.
I didn't occur to me that older designed cars wouldn't just comply with IVA rules, but I guess they are quite strict compared to what even manufactures built back then. I understand what you mean now about the car being 'scrap'; now that it's on their radar as the chassis being 'modified', the point about it being electric or not is moot. What a nightmare.
surveyor said:
If they will not accept an appeal, they do have an Ombudsman you can go to https://www.ombudsman.org.uk/making-complaint/what...
No idea if you are right or wrong OP.
Thanks, I’ll give them a try.No idea if you are right or wrong OP.
walamai said:
I didn't occur to me that older designed cars wouldn't just comply with IVA rules, but I guess they are quite strict compared to what even manufactures built back then. I understand what you mean now about the car being 'scrap'; now that it's on their radar as the chassis being 'modified', the point about it being electric or not is moot. What a nightmare.
There are brand new cars that would pass IVA without some help! But yes, any classic would fail the radius tests majorly. There seems to be a push to convert existing classics into EV, & Planet Friendly transport !!!
A company in London and I am sure in many other places can convert said classic for around £30,000 (FFS)
Now how about crunching these numbers !!! take a Mini, a rebuilt A- Series, I guess costs about £3000 + - ?
leaving £27,000 for lovely PETROL, and even at today's rip-off fuel prices would give you approximately 120,000 miles, with no fear of
Range Anxiety,
If anybody actually think they're saving the planet by buying a huge EV BMW X3 then I sorry, but simply cannot agree ( This is the clean version ) Discuss.
This was the start of my initial post regarding EV cars as a big con, (and I still do), but in your case the DVLA are taking the p*ss. Why not just IVA it and run with a Q plate as an EV Kit car that just looks like a Mini ???
A company in London and I am sure in many other places can convert said classic for around £30,000 (FFS)
Now how about crunching these numbers !!! take a Mini, a rebuilt A- Series, I guess costs about £3000 + - ?
leaving £27,000 for lovely PETROL, and even at today's rip-off fuel prices would give you approximately 120,000 miles, with no fear of
Range Anxiety,
If anybody actually think they're saving the planet by buying a huge EV BMW X3 then I sorry, but simply cannot agree ( This is the clean version ) Discuss.
This was the start of my initial post regarding EV cars as a big con, (and I still do), but in your case the DVLA are taking the p*ss. Why not just IVA it and run with a Q plate as an EV Kit car that just looks like a Mini ???
whirlybird said:
There seems to be a push to convert existing classics into EV, & Planet Friendly transport !!!
A company in London and I am sure in many other places can convert said classic for around £30,000 (FFS)
Now how about crunching these numbers !!! take a Mini, a rebuilt A- Series, I guess costs about £3000 + - ?
leaving £27,000 for lovely PETROL, and even at today's rip-off fuel prices would give you approximately 120,000 miles, with no fear of
Range Anxiety,
If anybody actually think they're saving the planet by buying a huge EV BMW X3 then I sorry, but simply cannot agree ( This is the clean version ) Discuss.
This was the start of my initial post regarding EV cars as a big con, (and I still do), but in your case the DVLA are taking the p*ss. Why not just IVA it and run with a Q plate as an EV Kit car that just looks like a Mini ???
Did you read any of this thread before replying? Discuss…..A company in London and I am sure in many other places can convert said classic for around £30,000 (FFS)
Now how about crunching these numbers !!! take a Mini, a rebuilt A- Series, I guess costs about £3000 + - ?
leaving £27,000 for lovely PETROL, and even at today's rip-off fuel prices would give you approximately 120,000 miles, with no fear of
Range Anxiety,
If anybody actually think they're saving the planet by buying a huge EV BMW X3 then I sorry, but simply cannot agree ( This is the clean version ) Discuss.
This was the start of my initial post regarding EV cars as a big con, (and I still do), but in your case the DVLA are taking the p*ss. Why not just IVA it and run with a Q plate as an EV Kit car that just looks like a Mini ???
I managed to get the Office of information to at least rock the boat of the DVLA thanks to the much appreciated suggestion above!
They will ask for the release of the report that the DVLA based their insistence to take this car off the road.
It won't however ever explain why they don't allow me to weld drilled holes up to stop the destruction of a classic mini.
They are so under funded and under staffed they really couldn't care less about complaints. And some staff are loving being able to kill nice cars on technicalities.
That said, gawd knows why folk who hate cars apply for jobs at the DVLA!
Finally, there is an increasing pressure of evidence which is actually making some classic car publications sit up and realise that:
1) this death of a classic is actually happening because of drilled holes in its boot! OMG!
2) perhaps people should know about this nonsense and that they should possibly share!
They will ask for the release of the report that the DVLA based their insistence to take this car off the road.
It won't however ever explain why they don't allow me to weld drilled holes up to stop the destruction of a classic mini.
They are so under funded and under staffed they really couldn't care less about complaints. And some staff are loving being able to kill nice cars on technicalities.
That said, gawd knows why folk who hate cars apply for jobs at the DVLA!
Finally, there is an increasing pressure of evidence which is actually making some classic car publications sit up and realise that:
1) this death of a classic is actually happening because of drilled holes in its boot! OMG!
2) perhaps people should know about this nonsense and that they should possibly share!
bitsilly said:
I managed to get the Office of information to at least rock the boat of the DVLA thanks to the much appreciated suggestion above!
They will ask for the release of the report that the DVLA based their insistence to take this car off the road.
It won't however ever explain why they don't allow me to weld drilled holes up to stop the destruction of a classic mini.
They are so under funded and under staffed they really couldn't care less about complaints. And some staff are loving being able to kill nice cars on technicalities.
That said, gawd knows why folk who hate cars apply for jobs at the DVLA!
Finally, there is an increasing pressure of evidence which is actually making some classic car publications sit up and realise that:
1) this death of a classic is actually happening because of drilled holes in its boot! OMG!
2) perhaps people should know about this nonsense and that they should possibly share!
It died as a classic when you chopped it about into what it never was, and never could have been, in its day.They will ask for the release of the report that the DVLA based their insistence to take this car off the road.
It won't however ever explain why they don't allow me to weld drilled holes up to stop the destruction of a classic mini.
They are so under funded and under staffed they really couldn't care less about complaints. And some staff are loving being able to kill nice cars on technicalities.
That said, gawd knows why folk who hate cars apply for jobs at the DVLA!
Finally, there is an increasing pressure of evidence which is actually making some classic car publications sit up and realise that:
1) this death of a classic is actually happening because of drilled holes in its boot! OMG!
2) perhaps people should know about this nonsense and that they should possibly share!
bitsilly said:
I managed to get the Office of information to at least rock the boat of the DVLA thanks to the much appreciated suggestion above!
They will ask for the release of the report that the DVLA based their insistence to take this car off the road.
It won't however ever explain why they don't allow me to weld drilled holes up to stop the destruction of a classic mini.
They are so under funded and under staffed they really couldn't care less about complaints. And some staff are loving being able to kill nice cars on technicalities.
That said, gawd knows why folk who hate cars apply for jobs at the DVLA!
Finally, there is an increasing pressure of evidence which is actually making some classic car publications sit up and realise that:
1) this death of a classic is actually happening because of drilled holes in its boot! OMG!
2) perhaps people should know about this nonsense and that they should possibly share!
They will ask for the release of the report that the DVLA based their insistence to take this car off the road.
It won't however ever explain why they don't allow me to weld drilled holes up to stop the destruction of a classic mini.
They are so under funded and under staffed they really couldn't care less about complaints. And some staff are loving being able to kill nice cars on technicalities.
That said, gawd knows why folk who hate cars apply for jobs at the DVLA!
Finally, there is an increasing pressure of evidence which is actually making some classic car publications sit up and realise that:
1) this death of a classic is actually happening because of drilled holes in its boot! OMG!
2) perhaps people should know about this nonsense and that they should possibly share!
bitsilly said:
watch out for articles in Complete Kit Car , and Chasing cars by John Mayhead.
Well, keep us in the loop. Hope you get an ok outcome out of it.So, I'm going to start by saying in this instance I feel for the OP. The holes are less than people will make fitting a stereo for example and *way* less than the modifications many have made to Mini's and "got away with it". That said, I do kind of think it is deserved that EV conversions *should* as a matter of course need an IVA test (although at the same time I don't think that the IVA test is fit for purpose for private converted EV's either).
On that note I do disagree with the OP though, it's not impossible to get through but it would be expensive and may require a large number of items purchased *purely* to get past the IVA[1].
Lots and lots of cars out there that should have gone through IVA *and* be on a Q. Any number of "projects" on here and youtube that are awesome technically but blatantly illegal.
I do wonder if the level of pisstaking going on is why this has triggered this.
Personally I think the rules are both clear as mud and as a result inconsistently applied and with no avenue for appeal. It's an utter minefield that seems to totally depend on who you get, if they like your project or not and if they got some action or not the night before!
You can have a rust hole in the chassis the size of your fist and it's fine, patch it fine but drill a hole then patch it and suddenly its not?!
[1] This is rife in the Kit Car world, no windows being fitted for example so the problem of a lack of marked glass isn't a problem, special steering wheels, mirrors, exhausts, no headlight covers, shrouds fitted over parts etc.
robemcdonald said:
Slightly off topic, but I wonder if this will effect project binky?
Project Binky will have to go through IVA and be registered under a Q. Although AFAICT they've got the external seams on still but from a google it appears you can get rubber trim to cover them and as they've changed everything else presumable they have already fulfilled the need for a collapsible steering column. On that note I do disagree with the OP though, it's not impossible to get through but it would be expensive and may require a large number of items purchased *purely* to get past the IVA[1].
normalbloke said:
robemcdonald said:
What about when people add lightening holes? Like that 911 that the owner got down to 700 kg?
There are many,many projects and cars already on the road, that will have no chance of being legal under the points system as it currently stands. Some through ignorance, some through the belief it won’t affect them. Right up until it bites you in the arse.I do wonder if the level of pisstaking going on is why this has triggered this.
Personally I think the rules are both clear as mud and as a result inconsistently applied and with no avenue for appeal. It's an utter minefield that seems to totally depend on who you get, if they like your project or not and if they got some action or not the night before!
You can have a rust hole in the chassis the size of your fist and it's fine, patch it fine but drill a hole then patch it and suddenly its not?!
[1] This is rife in the Kit Car world, no windows being fitted for example so the problem of a lack of marked glass isn't a problem, special steering wheels, mirrors, exhausts, no headlight covers, shrouds fitted over parts etc.
I think the holes and the points system are a bit of distraction.
The fundamental point is a 'radically altered vehicle' needs an IVA.
Turning an old mini into an EV is radical alteration.
Not really much question about that.
Does the points system actually define the law or is it just a guide to where to draw the 'radical' line for the typical mods old vehicles are expected to accumulate?
In general, I don't think it's wrong that radically altered vehicles need an IVA to go on the road.
It's all very well lauding people who do radical stuff and maybe risk their own skin, but there's a limit to what we want to share the public roads with or see sold to punters.
The fundamental point is a 'radically altered vehicle' needs an IVA.
Turning an old mini into an EV is radical alteration.
Not really much question about that.
Does the points system actually define the law or is it just a guide to where to draw the 'radical' line for the typical mods old vehicles are expected to accumulate?
In general, I don't think it's wrong that radically altered vehicles need an IVA to go on the road.
It's all very well lauding people who do radical stuff and maybe risk their own skin, but there's a limit to what we want to share the public roads with or see sold to punters.
dhutch said:
colin_p said:
Another tactic would be to ask them how you could fit a towbar to the car.
paulwf said:
If you fitted [almost anything to] many classics, you would fall foul of this interpretation of the rules.
Exactly. There are countless examples of where mounting holes have been made in cars, almost any vintage, classic, modified, converted vehicle will have had holes drilled into it to mount anything from an aftermarket radio aerial, ignition coil, fog light, through to cutting window in vans and bolting on towbars and disable access chair lifts etc, right up to chopping out and replacing huge amounts of the cills/pillars/rails to repair after crash damage or age related corrosion, including replacement of whole chassis on chassis based vehicles, also re-engining cars and carrying out driveline replacements.Sometimes major work needs inspection, most of the above list does not, but absolutely at no point does drilling a mounting hole mean the car loses its reg plate and needs to go through IVA inspection.
To me this is something which has gone seriously wrong somewhere.
The issue that the OP has is that the Mini is a monocoque design and that panel he's drilled into is the one that stops the rear subframe rotating within the monocoque - it's the structural link between the toe-board subframe mounts and the rear mounts.
The DVLA's reading of the law is 'correct' on the face of it, though there should obviously be a level of discretion applied to avoid perverse outcomes such as this.
The radically altered vehicle clause was drafted through the lens of VW idiots notching chassis rails to lower their cars to the floor. It's probably correct that such mods should require inspection, but the impact on monocoques is extensive when the Law is read literally and without discretion.
The wider problem is that fixing this issue is unlikely to come without opening the industry to more formal regulation around the aspects of conversion that are generally more problematic. Perhaps the DVLA is trying to use the existing legislation as best they can to stop any random f
king about with high-voltage/high amperage batteries inside a metal box and then driving it on the road? On the face of it I can see why they would be worried about something like this getting in a crash and electrocuting someone.OutInTheShed said:
I think the holes and the points system are a bit of distraction.
The fundamental point is a 'radically altered vehicle' needs an IVA.
Turning an old mini into an EV is radical alteration.
Not really much question about that.
Does the points system actually define the law or is it just a guide to where to draw the 'radical' line for the typical mods old vehicles are expected to accumulate?
In general, I don't think it's wrong that radically altered vehicles need an IVA to go on the road.
It's all very well lauding people who do radical stuff and maybe risk their own skin, but there's a limit to what we want to share the public roads with or see sold to punters.
How many classic cars with electric conversions have subsequently been IVA'd I wonder.The fundamental point is a 'radically altered vehicle' needs an IVA.
Turning an old mini into an EV is radical alteration.
Not really much question about that.
Does the points system actually define the law or is it just a guide to where to draw the 'radical' line for the typical mods old vehicles are expected to accumulate?
In general, I don't think it's wrong that radically altered vehicles need an IVA to go on the road.
It's all very well lauding people who do radical stuff and maybe risk their own skin, but there's a limit to what we want to share the public roads with or see sold to punters.
My guess is none ..... because they'd all fail without extensive modifications
Oilchange said:
Have to say if I were to try this with a classic car I'd be reading and abiding by the requirements of the DVLA to the letter, I'd want to be squeaky clean!
I know anyone who has read my posts will know this but as the thread is so long, and as the moderators refuse to close this thread so as to allow me to post it on Classic cars, I will repeat a few things.I have put a car through IVA before. Anyone who wants to argue that I should just get one and accept the q-plate should have a look at the rules or read the article on IVA in this months kit car mag.
I was following all the rules at the time, but they changed during the conversion.
The conversion was designed to be 100% reversible in case I could find a different better way of infuriating bigots.
I really have to try and cut through the chaff here, the DVLA took an immaculate, safe, well engineered car off the road because I drilled a hole or holes in the original battery box in the boot and hence majorly modified the car and they will not allow that hole or holes to be welded up and have refused all appeals. Simples, I'm afraid.
ps thank you for all the supportive mail I have had and the signatures on that which cannot be mentioned. I'm afraid the DVLA have won this one but it may help a few people dodge the landmines in the future.
Over and out.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff