Congestion charge exemption for EV's being removed
Discussion
KingGary said:
TheDeuce said:
That's basic thinking.
Some improvements can't happen organically, the transition has to be supported by a plan and targets - in this case it's because the automotive industry have to know the rate at which the market will transition to EV. If they didn't have such a firm plan, they could not afford the speculative effort to make a range of EV's and 'see if they sell'.
So the plan in place, the global plan, has to feature targets and legislation and subsidies are used to drive the market to meet those targets as closely as possible.
That’ll be the plan that nobody can afford or agree upon? Forget, is it 2030, 35 or never? Today’s the election, how many people have voted to improve their standard of living instead of saving the planet? Wonder how the Greens will do?Some improvements can't happen organically, the transition has to be supported by a plan and targets - in this case it's because the automotive industry have to know the rate at which the market will transition to EV. If they didn't have such a firm plan, they could not afford the speculative effort to make a range of EV's and 'see if they sell'.
So the plan in place, the global plan, has to feature targets and legislation and subsidies are used to drive the market to meet those targets as closely as possible.
But that doesn't mean it's not wise to move forwards to a better solution.
I don't know what your obsession is with saving the planet - hardly anyone cares and it's not really a significant part of why we should transist to EV. Politicians use it to justify difficult policies but plainly the biggest improvements EV bring is better localised air quality and the ability for us to use more renewable energy than ever before.
raspy said:
So according to KingGary's beliefs, "most" consumers don't care about EVs, and have no interest in switching to a vehicle that doesn't emit anything at the tailpipe, as EVs are inferior, and do nothing better than an ICE, right? And if they have switched to EVs, it's got nothing to do with the environment, and simply about lower costs/taxes, right?
Let's see how multiple surveys of UK consumers seem to contradict the findings of KingGary's own UK survey of consumers (aka his/her perception of what consumers* across the UK want)
"85% of the public are in favour of owning an electric vehicle in the next five years but almost two-thirds (62%) say high costs remain the main barrier to switching."
https://company.ovo.com/85-of-public-want-to-buy-a...
despite-delayed-fossil-fuel-car-ban/
Yougov survey - UK and other countries published May 2024
"imagine there are two otherwise identical versions available - one that is manufactured or provided with environmental sustainability in mind and a regular version.
Up to how much more would you be willing to pay for the sustainable version of the product or service compared to the regular one?"
58% willing to pay up to 10% more
26% willing to pay up to 26% more
10% willing to pay up to 50% more
https://business.yougov.com/content/49364-the-gree...
Yougov attitudes towards used EVs - published Nov 2023
"Polling data shows that, while a majority of Brits are unlikely to consider purchasing an EV (54%), a fifth of respondents (20%) are open to the idea.
Notably, younger consumers are far likelier to consider purchasing second-hand EVs. For instance, 18-24-year-olds exhibit the highest inclination (34%) toward considering a second-hand EV, closely followed by 25-34-year-olds (30%). While inclination levels among those aged 45-54 are low (17%), they are still twice as likely as those aged over 55 (9%) to make this purchase consideration.
among potential buyers, the most prevalent motivator is the lower purchase price compared to new EVs (65%).
A desire to contribute to a greener environment ranks high, with 61% selecting reduced environmental impact as a motivator.
Additionally, 57% of consumers find the prospect of lower operating and maintenance costs compelling enough to consider a second-hand EV."
https://business.yougov.com/content/47836-consumer...
Survey on behalf of GWM - published Dec 2023
"When asked about driving habits, only 19% of those surveyed said that they travelled more than 10,000 miles annually in their main car and 43% admitted that they only make a 200 mile trip ‘a few times a year’."
https://gwmora.co.uk/consumer-research-affirms-str...
PwC UK research on car subscriptions for cars
"Nearly half of UK consumers (49%) would be more likely to choose an alternative subscription model rather than traditional purchasing and financing routes when buying a car, according to new data from PwC.
The research found that age was a key indicator of interest: For premium and luxury brands, 85% of subscription demand is expected to come from customers between 18-44 years old"
https://www.pwc.co.uk/press-room/press-releases/re...
Yes, KingGary, you have beliefs, opinions, and views, like each of us, but they do not reflect the shift in consumer preferences, needs and wants in this country, especially with younger consumers.
Drivel. More facts for you: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-carmakers-...Let's see how multiple surveys of UK consumers seem to contradict the findings of KingGary's own UK survey of consumers (aka his/her perception of what consumers* across the UK want)
- n=1
"85% of the public are in favour of owning an electric vehicle in the next five years but almost two-thirds (62%) say high costs remain the main barrier to switching."
https://company.ovo.com/85-of-public-want-to-buy-a...
despite-delayed-fossil-fuel-car-ban/
Yougov survey - UK and other countries published May 2024
"imagine there are two otherwise identical versions available - one that is manufactured or provided with environmental sustainability in mind and a regular version.
Up to how much more would you be willing to pay for the sustainable version of the product or service compared to the regular one?"
58% willing to pay up to 10% more
26% willing to pay up to 26% more
10% willing to pay up to 50% more
https://business.yougov.com/content/49364-the-gree...
Yougov attitudes towards used EVs - published Nov 2023
"Polling data shows that, while a majority of Brits are unlikely to consider purchasing an EV (54%), a fifth of respondents (20%) are open to the idea.
Notably, younger consumers are far likelier to consider purchasing second-hand EVs. For instance, 18-24-year-olds exhibit the highest inclination (34%) toward considering a second-hand EV, closely followed by 25-34-year-olds (30%). While inclination levels among those aged 45-54 are low (17%), they are still twice as likely as those aged over 55 (9%) to make this purchase consideration.
among potential buyers, the most prevalent motivator is the lower purchase price compared to new EVs (65%).
A desire to contribute to a greener environment ranks high, with 61% selecting reduced environmental impact as a motivator.
Additionally, 57% of consumers find the prospect of lower operating and maintenance costs compelling enough to consider a second-hand EV."
https://business.yougov.com/content/47836-consumer...
Survey on behalf of GWM - published Dec 2023
"When asked about driving habits, only 19% of those surveyed said that they travelled more than 10,000 miles annually in their main car and 43% admitted that they only make a 200 mile trip ‘a few times a year’."
https://gwmora.co.uk/consumer-research-affirms-str...
PwC UK research on car subscriptions for cars
"Nearly half of UK consumers (49%) would be more likely to choose an alternative subscription model rather than traditional purchasing and financing routes when buying a car, according to new data from PwC.
The research found that age was a key indicator of interest: For premium and luxury brands, 85% of subscription demand is expected to come from customers between 18-44 years old"
https://www.pwc.co.uk/press-room/press-releases/re...
Yes, KingGary, you have beliefs, opinions, and views, like each of us, but they do not reflect the shift in consumer preferences, needs and wants in this country, especially with younger consumers.
KingGary said:
Drivel. More facts for you: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-carmakers-...
From your link:“ Mike Hawes, the SMMT chief executive, said: “The private consumer market continues to shrink against a difficult economic backdrop, but with the right policies in place, the next government can re-energise the market and deliver a faster, fairer zero emission transition.”
Overall, EVs slightly increased their share of new car sales in the first half of this year, from 16.1pc to 16.6pc.
June was also the best month of 2024 for electric cars, which took a 19pc monthly market share compared to 17.9pc a year earlier.”
Diesel down 17% and petrol down over 7%
All forms of EV up.
The end of only ICE is nigh.
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Friday 5th July 16:49
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Friday 5th July 16:51
Nomme de Plum said:
KingGary said:
Drivel. More facts for you: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-carmakers-...
From your link:“ Mike Hawes, the SMMT chief executive, said: “The private consumer market continues to shrink against a difficult economic backdrop, but with the right policies in place, the next government can re-energise the market and deliver a faster, fairer zero emission transition.”
Overall, EVs slightly increased their share of new car sales in the first half of this year, from 16.1pc to 16.6pc.
June was also the best month of 2024 for electric cars, which took a 19pc monthly market share compared to 17.9pc a year earlier.”
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Friday 5th July 16:49
Let’s have a bit more truth from said article:
“ But these figures remain below the Government’s annual target of 22pc, with sales heavily weighted towards business customers.
Out of about 167,000 EVs sold from January to June this year, only 19.8pc or about 33,000 were delivered to private buyers.
That was down from 24.2pc, or 37,000, over the same period in 2023.
Several experts say this is down to the fact that tax breaks remain in place for business buyers of EVs – including those that offer leasing deals through salary sacrifice schemes – while the UK’s consumer-facing plug-in grant was scrapped in 2022.
The SMMT, which represents carmakers, has called on the Government to revitalise private sales with cuts to the amount of VAT charged on EV purchases and the installation of public chargers.
This would generate an extra 300,000 sales of EVs to consumers, the lobby group estimates.
Jamie Hamilton, head of electric vehicles at Deloitte, warned that the switch to electric cars needed “ramping up”.”
Edited by KingGary on Friday 5th July 16:58
TheDeuce said:
You're making my point for me. It's a difficult transition to make and most manufacturers and most motorists wouldn't organically want to tackle such a transition - easiest to keep things as they are...
But that doesn't mean it's not wise to move forwards to a better solution.
I don't know what your obsession is with saving the planet - hardly anyone cares and it's not really a significant part of why we should transist to EV. Politicians use it to justify difficult policies but plainly the biggest improvements EV bring is better localised air quality and the ability for us to use more renewable energy than ever before.
The improvements actually come with 'less IC cars' not 'more EVs'.But that doesn't mean it's not wise to move forwards to a better solution.
I don't know what your obsession is with saving the planet - hardly anyone cares and it's not really a significant part of why we should transist to EV. Politicians use it to justify difficult policies but plainly the biggest improvements EV bring is better localised air quality and the ability for us to use more renewable energy than ever before.
Extra EVs are just more congestion.
If you want buses to work properly, you need less congestion.
Meanwhile, atmospheric CO2 is up about 1%, in a year, it's increasing at an accelering rate.
KingGary said:
Nomme de Plum said:
KingGary said:
Drivel. More facts for you: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-carmakers-...
From your link:“ Mike Hawes, the SMMT chief executive, said: “The private consumer market continues to shrink against a difficult economic backdrop, but with the right policies in place, the next government can re-energise the market and deliver a faster, fairer zero emission transition.”
Overall, EVs slightly increased their share of new car sales in the first half of this year, from 16.1pc to 16.6pc.
June was also the best month of 2024 for electric cars, which took a 19pc monthly market share compared to 17.9pc a year earlier.”
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Friday 5th July 16:49
Let’s have a bit more truth from said article:
“ But these figures remain below the Government’s annual target of 22pc, with sales heavily weighted towards business customers.
Out of about 167,000 EVs sold from January to June this year, only 19.8pc or about 33,000 were delivered to private buyers.
That was down from 24.2pc, or 37,000, over the same period in 2023.
Several experts say this is down to the fact that tax breaks remain in place for business buyers of EVs – including those that offer leasing deals through salary sacrifice schemes – while the UK’s consumer-facing plug-in grant was scrapped in 2022.
The SMMT, which represents carmakers, has called on the Government to revitalise private sales with cuts to the amount of VAT charged on EV purchases and the installation of public chargers.
This would generate an extra 300,000 sales of EVs to consumers, the lobby group estimates.
Jamie Hamilton, head of electric vehicles at Deloitte, warned that the switch to electric cars needed “ramping up”.”
Edited by KingGary on Friday 5th July 16:58
Private buyers aren’t buying new cars because they are expensive and often expensive to finance. We’ve seen this before though when times were hard. It’s no big surprise.
I hope the new Government does continue with support for the roll out and would like to see legislation to allow EV users to link their domestic power account to charging remotely using a card. It would make a huge difference for those with no access to a charger at home.
It will be watch this space for the next 3 to 6 months.
OutInTheShed said:
TheDeuce said:
You're making my point for me. It's a difficult transition to make and most manufacturers and most motorists wouldn't organically want to tackle such a transition - easiest to keep things as they are...
But that doesn't mean it's not wise to move forwards to a better solution.
I don't know what your obsession is with saving the planet - hardly anyone cares and it's not really a significant part of why we should transist to EV. Politicians use it to justify difficult policies but plainly the biggest improvements EV bring is better localised air quality and the ability for us to use more renewable energy than ever before.
The improvements actually come with 'less IC cars' not 'more EVs'.But that doesn't mean it's not wise to move forwards to a better solution.
I don't know what your obsession is with saving the planet - hardly anyone cares and it's not really a significant part of why we should transist to EV. Politicians use it to justify difficult policies but plainly the biggest improvements EV bring is better localised air quality and the ability for us to use more renewable energy than ever before.
Extra EVs are just more congestion.
If you want buses to work properly, you need less congestion.
Meanwhile, atmospheric CO2 is up about 1%, in a year, it's increasing at an accelering rate.
TFL seem to making this unnecessarily complicated.
Surely it’s as easy as seeing that a car is a BEV and not charging them?
I tried to register mine, but it’s leased and they seem to want a document I don’t have. Then I have to pay an annual fee and wait for a number of days,
Ended up taking my ICE in instead (it’s bigger and more comfortable) and just paid the charge.
Need to give registration another try I suppose but it seems like an annoying process.
Surely it’s as easy as seeing that a car is a BEV and not charging them?
I tried to register mine, but it’s leased and they seem to want a document I don’t have. Then I have to pay an annual fee and wait for a number of days,
Ended up taking my ICE in instead (it’s bigger and more comfortable) and just paid the charge.
Need to give registration another try I suppose but it seems like an annoying process.
MrTrilby said:
Pica-Pica said:
Not strictly true. The smoking ban started a progressive reduction in receipts from tobacco products as people drew away from them, and that income had to be replaced from other sources.
Which will lead to significant cost savings for the NHS as health outcomes improve for those smoking less. Another type of net zero 
Registering a vehicle for congestion charge discount due to it being electric is easy.
You apply through your TFL account in the discounts section. It costs £10 per year and you get an email back within a day or so saying that the exemption is now active. I did not need to send any documents to renew mine as it is a BEV and appears so on the Vehicle Registration document. TFL have access to the DVLA vehicle database so can check this easily. I do recall in the past that you needed to send in a copy of your vehicle registration document but you don't now.
You apply through your TFL account in the discounts section. It costs £10 per year and you get an email back within a day or so saying that the exemption is now active. I did not need to send any documents to renew mine as it is a BEV and appears so on the Vehicle Registration document. TFL have access to the DVLA vehicle database so can check this easily. I do recall in the past that you needed to send in a copy of your vehicle registration document but you don't now.
eldar said:
MrTrilby said:
Pica-Pica said:
Not strictly true. The smoking ban started a progressive reduction in receipts from tobacco products as people drew away from them, and that income had to be replaced from other sources.
Which will lead to significant cost savings for the NHS as health outcomes improve for those smoking less. Another type of net zero Anyway. Back on topic I don’t have an issue with being charged for taking my EV into a city but actually avoid it by using public transport.
Nomme de Plum said:
Strange as it may seem but many pensioners pay income tax and some of actually pay quite a bit annually. We don’t all need care and in fact any health service needs. I accept statistically someone over 75 is more likely to need the NHS or social care of some sort or another but we are not all the same. Some of us are really active and stay in shape too.
Anyway. Back on topic I don’t have an issue with being charged for taking my EV into a city but actually avoid it by using public transport.
The smoking ban has simply transformed into generation vape. Thinking about it , banning smoking indoors has transformed many spaces from no go areas to pleasant places. The EV policies won’t have any were near the same impact. If the EV policy targeted Bus and Taxi then it would be a different story.Anyway. Back on topic I don’t have an issue with being charged for taking my EV into a city but actually avoid it by using public transport.
ashenfie said:
The smoking ban has simply transformed into generation vape. Thinking about it , banning smoking indoors has transformed many spaces from no go areas to pleasant places. The EV policies won’t have any were near the same impact. If the EV policy targeted Bus and Taxi then it would be a different story.
Well buses are well on the way to being ZEV - apparently over 45% of single and double decker bus new registrations last year were battery or hydrogen fuel cell. Certainly loads of electric ones in Leicester and Nottingham that I’ve seen.https://www.smmt.co.uk/2024/02/next-stop-net-zero-...
plfrench said:
ashenfie said:
The smoking ban has simply transformed into generation vape. Thinking about it , banning smoking indoors has transformed many spaces from no go areas to pleasant places. The EV policies won’t have any were near the same impact. If the EV policy targeted Bus and Taxi then it would be a different story.
Well buses are well on the way to being ZEV - apparently over 45% of single and double decker bus new registrations last year were battery or hydrogen fuel cell. Certainly loads of electric ones in Leicester and Nottingham that I’ve seen.https://www.smmt.co.uk/2024/02/next-stop-net-zero-...
As long as public transport and commercial vehicles change at a similar pace then our cities environment will already be much better than they are today.
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