Solid State batteries to replace Li-Ion storage ?
Discussion
Mr E said:
I know very little about the chemistry and nothing about the challenges taking the lab concept to production. But I suspect it’s a long way from easy.
Last I read a journal from one of the battery manufacturer. One issue they have when upscaling the battery, it is the growth of electrode and eventually puncture the barrier between two electrode which lead to short circuiting the battery.There's also mention about mechanical instability between the electrode and Li electrolyte, delamination of the layers.
So probably my guess it will be still be some years before it become commercially viable
Mr E said:
Please then control the plasma at that absurd temperature, work out how to extract useful “work” from it to generate electricity. Oh, and by the way all the materials you use will be hammered by a constant stream of high energy protons that’ll do “interesting” things.
To be fair, they did (finally!) manage to achieve positive net energy output for the first time very briefly last year. There's a bit of a jump from a few micro-Joules of energy generation to a viable power station though. 
I think both Nuclear Fusion and Solid State batteries have a tendency to be held up as some sort of panacea by people who don't really understand what they are and are not likely to achieve.
TheDeuce said:
Would those sort of estimates be based on PV or solar towers?
USA electrical consumption is about 4000 TWh annually, UK is about 300 TWh.A PV panel in a good location yields around 250 kWh/m^2 annually.
Anyway, 4,000 TWh = 16000 km^2.
Just over 125 x 125 km.
Less in the Southern states.
Edited by GT9 on Monday 17th June 11:11
GT9 said:
TheDeuce said:
Would those sort of estimates be based on PV or solar towers?
USA electrical consumption is about 4000 TWh annually, UK is about 300 TWh.A PV panel in a good location yields around 250 kWh/m^2 annually.
Anyway, 4,000 TWh = 16000 km^2.
Just over 125 x 125 km.
Less in the Southern states.
Edited by GT9 on Monday 17th June 11:11
Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 17th June 12:54
ChocolateFrog said:
A few square miles of solar panels placed in the Sahara dessert would provide enough electricity for the whole world.
Distribution might be an issue but it gives you an idea of how little we need relative to the amount available.
I read that molten salt cells packed into shipping containers will make transpotati9n 9f energy from/to remote areas possible. Sounds like its just 2 yrs away tho...Distribution might be an issue but it gives you an idea of how little we need relative to the amount available.
Interesting that solid state is already being used in really small devices like earbuds, and getting better. Japan's TDK (the tape people) one of those at the forefront
However: from the FT article about their latest breakthrough
"The ceramic material used by TDK means that larger-sized batteries would be more fragile, meaning the technical challenge of making batteries for cars or even smartphones will not be surmounted in the foreseeable future, according to the company."
https://www.ft.com/content/e33cb565-6d44-4f9a-9105...
However: from the FT article about their latest breakthrough
"The ceramic material used by TDK means that larger-sized batteries would be more fragile, meaning the technical challenge of making batteries for cars or even smartphones will not be surmounted in the foreseeable future, according to the company."
https://www.ft.com/content/e33cb565-6d44-4f9a-9105...
TheDeuce said:
Terminator X said:
Another reason not to buy one, wait for better batteries 
TX.
That's a reason not to buy or do anything new, ever.TX.
Which I accept is possibly how you live your life, given that you sign off posts on an internet forum in 2024 as if you're writing a note to a secretary in the 40's.
TD.
TheDeuce said:
GT9 said:
TheDeuce said:
Would those sort of estimates be based on PV or solar towers?
USA electrical consumption is about 4000 TWh annually, UK is about 300 TWh.A PV panel in a good location yields around 250 kWh/m^2 annually.
Anyway, 4,000 TWh = 16000 km^2.
Just over 125 x 125 km.
Less in the Southern states.
Cost goes up though and there is the environmental issue of birds flying into the beam, crispy duck anyone?
Panels are cheap, plentiful and a well understood technology so unless the storage aspect is a key enabler, my guess is that panels will be the go-to for many installations.
TheDeuce said:
Frimley111R said:
I'm pretty sure i read very recently that Nissan or Toyota are building a factory right now to produce them.
Happy to dismantle the latest BS tall story from the Japanese auto manufactures - but can you provide a source as a starting point?I can more or less guarantee that it'll basically be a factory they need anyway, with the potential to be used to manufacture solid state batteries, to keep the shareholders happy... If you can't prove the battery itself to the world, the next most convincing thing you can do is to build a facility to produce them. Or at least sell it that way.
Frimley111R said:
TheDeuce said:
Frimley111R said:
I'm pretty sure i read very recently that Nissan or Toyota are building a factory right now to produce them.
Happy to dismantle the latest BS tall story from the Japanese auto manufactures - but can you provide a source as a starting point?I can more or less guarantee that it'll basically be a factory they need anyway, with the potential to be used to manufacture solid state batteries, to keep the shareholders happy... If you can't prove the battery itself to the world, the next most convincing thing you can do is to build a facility to produce them. Or at least sell it that way.
"Nissan revealed its all-solid-state battery pilot production line at its Yokohama Plant in Kanagawa Prefecture. This pilot line develops the necessary manufacturing technologies for the batteries for future mass production."
So the new factory is not being hurriedly built to mass produce millions of batteries. It's a single production line, in other words 'a lab', to work out how to make such batteries mass producible.
As I pointed out at the start - lots of companies have a proven solid state battery prototype, and with or without Nissan's 'give the shareholders something to believe in' press release, obviously they're all now trying to work out how to reliably mass produce the gold dust they have created as a prototype. In the words of Billie Eilish; "duh"
NB: their commitment to have solid state batteries in their cars by 2028 is not binding in any way and can easily be excused when it doesn't happen by pointing at failed promises from third parties or poor predictions made by executives that have since been dismissed.
Nissan have followed Toyota and made 'some noise', there's no indication of any substance behind the waffle.
The TDK SS battery is touted as a replacement for button cells and the like, and looks to be very roughly 40%-50% more capacious in terms of Wh against existing button cells. As ever an increase of this magnitude if EV's with no downsides (fragility, charge cycles, charge speed etc) would be good... but no earth shattering.
kurokawa said:
Mr E said:
I know very little about the chemistry and nothing about the challenges taking the lab concept to production. But I suspect it’s a long way from easy.
Last I read a journal from one of the battery manufacturer. One issue they have when upscaling the battery, it is the growth of electrode and eventually puncture the barrier between two electrode which lead to short circuiting the battery.There's also mention about mechanical instability between the electrode and Li electrolyte, delamination of the layers.
So probably my guess it will be still be some years before it become commercially viable
Toyota were supposed to have SS in their hybrids this year but I don't think that is happening.
The problem that SS is meant to resolve is the ability to have a Li anode without dendritic growth off it piecing the wet membrane of conventional cells. This allows for higher energy density, quicker charging and greater longevity.
SS has become a little bit of a joke sadly due to the delays and last year energy densities of wet cells came pretty close to real world matching the early theoretical claims of SS.
In the last month CATL have announced a Na/Li wet cell that has energy density and chemical stability that surpasses SS and is 30% cheaper than BYD's latest cells.
If that's actually true then SS is dead now as this NA/Li chemistry solves everything that SS was meant to solve but without any of the costs.
If this cell is true and it is 30% more energy efficient than the current best cells and 30% cheaper then it'll change the car market as it would be the trigger point to EVs being clearly cheaper to manufacture than ICE.
DonkeyApple said:
kurokawa said:
Mr E said:
I know very little about the chemistry and nothing about the challenges taking the lab concept to production. But I suspect it’s a long way from easy.
Last I read a journal from one of the battery manufacturer. One issue they have when upscaling the battery, it is the growth of electrode and eventually puncture the barrier between two electrode which lead to short circuiting the battery.There's also mention about mechanical instability between the electrode and Li electrolyte, delamination of the layers.
So probably my guess it will be still be some years before it become commercially viable
Toyota were supposed to have SS in their hybrids this year but I don't think that is happening.
The problem that SS is meant to resolve is the ability to have a Li anode without dendritic growth off it piecing the wet membrane of conventional cells. This allows for higher energy density, quicker charging and greater longevity.
SS has become a little bit of a joke sadly due to the delays and last year energy densities of wet cells came pretty close to real world matching the early theoretical claims of SS.
In the last month CATL have announced a Na/Li wet cell that has energy density and chemical stability that surpasses SS and is 30% cheaper than BYD's latest cells.
If that's actually true then SS is dead now as this NA/Li chemistry solves everything that SS was meant to solve but without any of the costs.
If this cell is true and it is 30% more energy efficient than the current best cells and 30% cheaper then it'll change the car market as it would be the trigger point to EVs being clearly cheaper to manufacture than ICE.
But whilst the consumers needs of today are easily met by the limits of li-ion, that's not the end of the enthusiasm to deliver better batteries. It's fairly obvious that currently the biggest excuse for not even considering an electric car is range - and mostly people seem to cite 300m+ real world, all weather, as the minimum before they'll even take it seriously. So tweaks to li-ion solve that.
But beyond relatively short term commercial triumphs, the industry is looking at 'tomorrow', and with better batteries we can do so much more than passivy the range obsessed motorist - most of whom don't need the range they demand in the first place.
Better batteries can deliver renewable energy to the planet and laptops that last a full day without needing to plugged in. Not initially of course, because you're right, the first mass produced SS batteries may hardly beat me li-ion. But the scope for the technology could easily reach 3x energy density. Probably more, if we look at what has been achieved with li-ion.
In conclusion; I welcome the recent advancements in li-ion, but I don't believe for one moment it will weaken the determination for big business to prove and secure the next battery technology.
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