BMW i5

[andy43]

SWoll said:

2 GKC said:

juice said:

Wow he really slated it didn't he ?

He set out to. Never once mentioned how quick it was. A 600hp electric 5er and no mention of the pace. He was right about the price though.

Love Harry but his EV reviews are never any good as he's obsessively focussed on range and efficiency, which for anyone on an EV tariff not doing 200+ miles on a regular basis aren't all that relevant in all honesty?

The fact he's only just had a epiphany around charging losses should tell you all you need to know about how much research he does..

He got 2.1 miles per kWh. It was cold, but that’s still pants. My 2018 P100D was doing 2.0 to 3.3, even with another 100-150kg and big wheels. This isn’t progress. Pace? Tesla was 60 in 2.5 and apart from fart noises was a lot more grown up on the infotainment side of things from what I could see there - inside it looked like Stringfellows in the 80’s. This vs the inventiveness, design flair and creativity of the i3 is like comparing the dull as ditchwater new Honda ENYOne thing to the Honda E. It won’t sell, but it might lease well until the residuals are worked out.

[TheDeuce]

SWoll said:

2 GKC said:

juice said:

Wow he really slated it didn't he ?

He set out to. Never once mentioned how quick it was. A 600hp electric 5er and no mention of the pace. He was right about the price though.

Love Harry but his EV reviews are never any good as he's obsessively focussed on range and efficiency, which for anyone on an EV tariff not doing 200+ miles on a regular basis aren't all that relevant in all honesty?

The fact he's only just had a epiphany around charging losses should tell you all you need to know about how much research he does..

He doesn't even understand how regen works... But fair play, he's at a certain age and simply isn't welcoming of a new type of car. He can only see where EV falls short of what he's used to, but he can't seem to balance that with what is better about EV.

Nonetheless, I can't help but feel he's perhaps right about the i5 in general. The only reason people buy a five series is to do a shed load of motorway cruising in comfort, often with a family - as of right now you're honestly better in a diesel 5 for that job. Or just a 4 series which is very close on size/comfort/ride these days and arguably more practical as it has a hatch. And cheaper.

As for the silly prices of EV's, nobody actually pays them! The private lease deals on most EV's effectively reveals the true price they're willing to sell at is closer to 2/3rds the RRP. European manufacturers ramped up the retail price of EV's when there was short supply and now seem reluctant to drop it back to reality - I assume because they don't want the bad blood of devaluing all used cars they have already sold...

[PSRG]

plfrench said:

SWoll said:

Love Harry but his EV reviews are never any good as he's obsessively focussed on range and efficiency, which for anyone on an EV tariff not doing 200+ miles on a regular basis aren't all that relevant in all honesty?

The fact he's only just had a epiphany around charging losses should tell you all you need to know about how much research he does..

Having Sustain fuels as a sponsor might lead him to be a bit biased against EV, the fact he was pining for a 520d says a lot too... but I do wonder if BMW have scored a bit of an own goal by not going for an EV only platform with this generation of 5 series? They will probably be getting quite concerned about the upcoming Audi A6 Etron Avant. The two will naturally be compared and having greater freedom around body design with the A6 will probably lead to a far better car from an aerodynamic (and therefore efficiency) and packaging perspective.

Packaging should definitely be better on a dedicated platform, but I’m not sure aerodynamically it’d make any difference. After all, the Mercedes EQE and the BMW i5 both have a Cd of 0.22 in base form, and the new E class one of 0.23. I’m guessing BMW didn’t think it was economic to have two platforms for the same segment in this transitional period, but MB decided it was. Be interesting to see how that pans out.

Harry didn’t really review much of the car as far as I could see…but he’s right, it’s far too expensive and the premium over petrol or hybrid is eye watering. He didn’t really seem to understand how significant the tax benefits were though…as a company / salary sacrifice car it makes far more sense than either hybrid or petrol.

I can’t comment on the i5 M60 range, but my entry level eDrive 40 is giving a real world range of 260 - 280 miles at the moment, in the cold/wet/wind and driven ‘normally’. I’m happy enough with that…it’s a very relaxing car to drive and a comfortable place to spend time. I’ve had mine a month and done 1,600 miles. I still think MB interiors look nicer, but the BMW is well put together and relatively easy to use. Voice control has moved on a lot since the version in the F10 5 series!

The (standard) adaptive LEDs are a bit flakey though; the resolution seems worse than the implementation in my 2019 E class, and they are easily confused by heavy rain and then just revert to dipped. I never had that in the Merc. The, also standard, Harman Kardon sound system is the best ‘standard’ system I’ve had in a BMW. The panoramic roof is a bit of a waste of money as it doesn’t open, and the specification of the entry level one is somewhat miserly. No adaptive cruise for example, and yet the adaptive regen uses the nav data and the camera to read the road ahead and slow the car…so all the hardware must be there anyway. Maybe I’ll get a chance to add it from the BMW store. I have 2 free trials at the moment - one for the speed camera alerts, which work very well, and one for ‘Welcome Light Projection’ which lets you set different lighting effects when you unlock the car. That’s a complete waste of money at £49 for a year!

But, to me, it feels like a proper BMW to drive, and the smoothness is reminiscent of the old straight 6 petrol BMWs. I’ve driven E34s (my Dad’s company cars back in the day), had an E39 and 2 E61s as company cars myself, and an F10 before this i5. And I think it’s as a good a 5 series as there’s been, as an all round comfortable, enjoyable to drive, relaxing car. The other thing I agree with Harry on is that it’s a bit too big. The weight comes with a BEV anyway, and it’s only when you’re really pushing on that you notice it…well, that and speed bumps / potholes, which it obliterates

[TheDeuce]

andy43 said:

Just watched the same video. Cringeworthy. WTF would you need all that crap on the infotainment?
This 10% loss between meter and car battery is interesting me more and more too. Knowing we’re paying a hidden ten percent or so extra for electricity is kinda annoying.

For context that means I pay £6.47 for electricity to charge my battery with equivalent £5.88 worth of power. In my 550hp EV that will travel 200 miles for that price.

As you can imagine, it's blown our household budget to pieces. I'm.starting to question if I can even afford the car anymore

[andy43]

TheDeuce said:

andy43 said:

Just watched the same video. Cringeworthy. WTF would you need all that crap on the infotainment?
This 10% loss between meter and car battery is interesting me more and more too. Knowing we’re paying a hidden ten percent or so extra for electricity is kinda annoying.

For context that means I pay £6.47 for electricity to charge my battery with equivalent £5.88 worth of power. In my 550hp EV that will travel 200 miles for that price.

As you can imagine, it's blown our household budget to pieces. I'm.starting to question if I can even afford the car anymore

I’ve been paying that ten percent for nine years but it’s only the last few months I’ve heard of it.
Maybe I missed the memo…

[TheDeuce]

andy43 said:

TheDeuce said:

andy43 said:

Just watched the same video. Cringeworthy. WTF would you need all that crap on the infotainment?
This 10% loss between meter and car battery is interesting me more and more too. Knowing we’re paying a hidden ten percent or so extra for electricity is kinda annoying.

For context that means I pay £6.47 for electricity to charge my battery with equivalent £5.88 worth of power. In my 550hp EV that will travel 200 miles for that price.

As you can imagine, it's blown our household budget to pieces. I'm.starting to question if I can even afford the car anymore

I’ve been paying that ten percent for nine years but it’s only the last few months I’ve heard of it.
Maybe I missed the memo…

I've always known about it, in fact when I quote my cars charge cost on these forums I always add the 10% just in case a smart arse comes along and questions it

But I only know about it because I happened to watch a random 'true cost of EV' video years ago. Does it really matter though? I imagine the average age ICE car is losing as much efficiency due to carbonised spark plugs, old oil, small leak in the exhaust upsetting back pressure and so on.. 10% is just not very much in monetary terms whatever car you run, in the case of EV it's literally unnoticeable Vs the general costs of paying for and running any car.

[JustGetATesla]

PSRG said:

Packaging should definitely be better on a dedicated platform, but I’m not sure aerodynamically it’d make any difference. After all, the Mercedes EQE and the BMW i5 both have a Cd of 0.22 in base form, and the new E class one of 0.23. I’m guessing BMW didn’t think it was economic to have two platforms for the same segment in this transitional period, but MB decided it was. Be interesting to see how that pans out.

Harry didn’t really review much of the car as far as I could see…but he’s right, it’s far too expensive and the premium over petrol or hybrid is eye watering. He didn’t really seem to understand how significant the tax benefits were though…as a company / salary sacrifice car it makes far more sense than either hybrid or petrol.

I can’t comment on the i5 M60 range, but my entry level eDrive 40 is giving a real world range of 260 - 280 miles at the moment, in the cold/wet/wind and driven ‘normally’. I’m happy enough with that…it’s a very relaxing car to drive and a comfortable place to spend time. I’ve had mine a month and done 1,600 miles. I still think MB interiors look nicer, but the BMW is well put together and relatively easy to use. Voice control has moved on a lot since the version in the F10 5 series!

The (standard) adaptive LEDs are a bit flakey though; the resolution seems worse than the implementation in my 2019 E class, and they are easily confused by heavy rain and then just revert to dipped. I never had that in the Merc. The, also standard, Harman Kardon sound system is the best ‘standard’ system I’ve had in a BMW. The panoramic roof is a bit of a waste of money as it doesn’t open, and the specification of the entry level one is somewhat miserly. No adaptive cruise for example, and yet the adaptive regen uses the nav data and the camera to read the road ahead and slow the car…so all the hardware must be there anyway. Maybe I’ll get a chance to add it from the BMW store. I have 2 free trials at the moment - one for the speed camera alerts, which work very well, and one for ‘Welcome Light Projection’ which lets you set different lighting effects when you unlock the car. That’s a complete waste of money at £49 for a year!

But, to me, it feels like a proper BMW to drive, and the smoothness is reminiscent of the old straight 6 petrol BMWs. I’ve driven E34s (my Dad’s company cars back in the day), had an E39 and 2 E61s as company cars myself, and an F10 before this i5. And I think it’s as a good a 5 series as there’s been, as an all round comfortable, enjoyable to drive, relaxing car. The other thing I agree with Harry on is that it’s a bit too big. The weight comes with a BEV anyway, and it’s only when you’re really pushing on that you notice it…well, that and speed bumps / potholes, which it obliterates

Thanks for posting another opinion! You say it compares favourably vs an F10. On handling? OK so I only had a 520d SE F10, but it was a saggy barge compared to the E91 320d it replaced. Ultimate Driving Machine my arse.

Do you regularly do distances in it? If so how are you getting on with charging? I welcome the rapid expansion of non-Tesla chargers but my eyes water at the prices they ask you all to pay...

[durbster]

SWoll said:

2 GKC said:

juice said:

Wow he really slated it didn't he ?

He set out to. Never once mentioned how quick it was. A 600hp electric 5er and no mention of the pace. He was right about the price though.

Love Harry but his EV reviews are never any good as he's obsessively focussed on range and efficiency, which for anyone on an EV tariff not doing 200+ miles on a regular basis aren't all that relevant in all honesty?

Aren't most of the people buying this class of car likely to be doing a lot of miles though?

I can't imagine many people are choosing a 5 series to do the school run.

[oop north]

2 GKC said:

juice said:

Wow he really slated it didn't he ?

He set out to. Never once mentioned how quick it was. A 600hp electric 5er and no mention of the pace. He was right about the price though.

It was a little bizarre - he got it in specifically because he was going to slate it / really disliked it

I was struck by the weight - 2400 kg with an 88kWh gross battery when the iX50 is 2500 kg with something like 111 kWh gross. I would have expected a bigger weight difference

[SDK]

oop north said:

I was struck by the weight - 2400 kg with an 88kWh gross battery when the iX50 is 2500 kg with something like 111 kWh gross. I would have expected a bigger weight difference

The iX is a pure ground up EV design and the i5 platform isn't - it's shared with petrol and diesel versions too, so will be a compromise on weight and design.
It makes sense BMW did this though, as not everyone is ready for a EV yet.

andy43 said:

This 10% loss between meter and car battery is interesting me more and more too. Knowing we’re paying a hidden ten percent or so extra for electricity is kinda annoying.

Could be worse - for fuel cars you are paying for 9 kWh of energy (per litre) and only about 2.8 kWh (25%) is used to power the car forwards, the rest is lost heating the atmosphere

JustGetATesla said:

Forget about the crap on the entertainment / GUI. They don't make or break any car. Remember what this car is - a 5-series BMW. I had one, and had a 190 mile a day commute for the days I was in the office. Its a corporate cruiser, up and down the motorway in comfort and a little bit of style. Set aside that modern BMWs are gopping and look at the range. That i5 wouldn't do my old commute without being tight on range. Absurd. And thats off a big battery. Did you see the energy use figures he was getting???

On the range and efficiency
The temp was 2c during his test and he wasn't exactly driving with economy in mind.
The i5 M60 can easily achieve 300 miles in normal temps and when not driving like Lewis Hamilton !

[PSRG]

JustGetATesla said:

Thanks for posting another opinion! You say it compares favourably vs an F10. On handling? OK so I only had a 520d SE F10, but it was a saggy barge compared to the E91 320d it replaced. Ultimate Driving Machine my arse.

Do you regularly do distances in it? If so how are you getting on with charging? I welcome the rapid expansion of non-Tesla chargers but my eyes water at the prices they ask you all to pay...

My F10 was a 520d ‘efficient dynamics’ special also in SE trim on, from memory, 17” wheels. Maybe 18…it was over 10 years ago. I think the whole things feels a class above that car, and the handling is, is, to me at least, very good. It’s easy to place on the road, remains composed and pretty flat when cornering , even at speed (the low CoG must help?) and is satisfying to drive briskly. Especially when you realise that it’s grown so much that it’s now pretty much the size of a 7 series from the last generation. It does that BMW thing of not feeling as big as it actually is, once you get going. Mine is in standard M Sport trim (there no SE in the UK), on standard (19”) wheels and suspension. It’s no 3 series though - it’s got to be a foot and a half longer!

Harry was also disparaging about all the assistance stuff. The speed limit warning is mandatory on all new cars, so not a BMW specific issue. And the voice control turns it off easily enough. It’s annoying that it comes on every time you start the car, but there’s no way round that legislatively I don’t think. He didn’t like the lane assist on country roads - he’s Oxfordshire I think? I have to say I haven’t noticed an issue in Sussex/Worcestershire/Herefordshire, which have plenty of country roads. Mine set to ‘medium’ interference, and it’s fine. It recognises what traffic is around you, and when you deliberately cross / straddle white lines, so it’s only when you drift over them that it warns you. Drive smoothly but briskly cross country and it never goes off. What is slightly annoying the the suggestion to take a break, when the sat nav shows it’s less that 2 miles to your destination

Mine is mainly used for long(ish) journeys - I live on the south coast and have a place in Herefordshire. It’s around 160 miles between them, and I’ll do the return journey weekly, and then do 100/120 miles running around during the week or at the weekend at either end. I don’t have off street parking in either location, but there are multiple public chargers where I’d usually park, and there is destination parking at the places I’m currently working. The chargers that are close (and they are close - less than 50m from where I’d ordinarily park) are only 11KwH ones, which cost 30p / KwH and 40p / KwH. So I haven’t had a single problem charging…it charges overnight, and is preconditioned in the morning before I get in it. I’ve only used 2 fast chargers - one on the A34 (Tott Hill Shell) and one on the A27 (BP Emsworth), both of which charged the car at > 150 KwH, so I only stopped for 10/11 minutes each time. The Shell one was 0.79p a KwH though, and BP I am not sure as there’s a special rate with the BMW charging card and I haven’t seen the bill yet. The standard rate was the same as shell

But I look at the expensive fast chargers as a convenience thing - a quick but expensive top up to the cheap charging elsewhere. Even without any off street parking and really cheap overnight charging I am averaging about 15p a mile in actual electricity cost. If I do the journey in my old diesel e class estate, which does 42 mpg, then even now diesel has come down it’d cost 16p a mile, and the petrol E350 that the i5 really replaces, which did 34 mpg, would have been at 19/20p a mile.

So I’m a pleasantly surprised how well it does work for me to be honest. I expected it to be slightly more of a hassle, and was happy with that perceived compromise when I ordered it. It hasn’t really materialised. I expect most people who lease one of these things will be doing it because it’s a comfortable, well equipped, tax efficient car that is also fun to drive on the odd occasion you get the opportunity. Most will, I am sure, spend much of their time doing what mine does - covering reasonable distances quickly, comfortably and efficiently.

Edited by PSRG on Monday 22 January 10:28

[SWoll]

andy43 said:

He got 2.1 miles per kWh. It was cold, but that’s still pants. My 2018 P100D was doing 2.0 to 3.3, even with another 100-150kg and big wheels. This isn’t progress. Pace? Tesla was 60 in 2.5 and apart from fart noises was a lot more grown up on the infotainment side of things from what I could see there - inside it looked like Stringfellows in the 80’s. This vs the inventiveness, design flair and creativity of the i3 is like comparing the dull as ditchwater new Honda ENYOne thing to the Honda E. It won’t sell, but it might lease well until the residuals are worked out.

Pointless comparing to a ground up EV like the P100D in many ways as everything will always come off second best for efficiency. The P100D was also a £115k car back in 2016..

The efficiency numbers are also going to be very dependent on how and where the car is being driven of course and what options are fitted.

durbster said:

Aren't most of the people buying this class of car likely to be doing a lot of miles though?

I can't imagine many people are choosing a 5 series to do the school run.

200 miles per day, 5 days per week, 48 weeks a year is 48k miles. That's a lot of miles and all can be charged at home.

[PSRG]

SWoll said:

andy43 said:

He got 2.1 miles per kWh. It was cold, but that’s still pants. My 2018 P100D was doing 2.0 to 3.3, even with another 100-150kg and big wheels. This isn’t progress. Pace? Tesla was 60 in 2.5 and apart from fart noises was a lot more grown up on the infotainment side of things from what I could see there - inside it looked like Stringfellows in the 80’s. This vs the inventiveness, design flair and creativity of the i3 is like comparing the dull as ditchwater new Honda ENYOne thing to the Honda E. It won’t sell, but it might lease well until the residuals are worked out.

Pointless comparing to a ground up EV like the P100D in many ways as everything will always come off second best for efficiency. The P100D was also a £115k car back in 2016..

The efficiency numbers are also going to be very dependent on how and where the car is being driven of course and what options are fitted.

durbster said:

Aren't most of the people buying this class of car likely to be doing a lot of miles though?

I can't imagine many people are choosing a 5 series to do the school run.

200 miles per day, 5 days per week, 48 weeks a year is 48k miles. That's a lot of miles and all can be charged at home.

I’m not sure his consumption figures are particularly representative of normal use, even in cold weather - during the week of minus 5/6 starts up here I was getting around 2.5 miles /KwH on sub 10 mile journeys, and on 150+ miles it was not much worse than the 3.2 I saw over Christmas.. But mines not an M50…though I imagine driven normally there’s not that much between them on the consumption front. During everywhere flat our, sure that.s going to hammer consumption. But that’s not how these things are used 95% of the time,

Interiors / infotainment are clearly an individual matter, though the simplicity of the Model 3 I tested was very good, but I don’t like not having anything in front of the driver. The HU display helps, but it’s far from perfect or comprehensive. And now you have to use the screen to change from forwards to reverse in the M3, which just can’t be a good thing for manoeuvring, no matter how much it simplifies the look.

Harry’s right though, good though I think the interior of the i5 is in real-life it’s not the interior of a £100k plus car without spending even more on extras. But then neither was the Model S. Most of it you just set and forget on the iDrive front so I think he was exaggerating to make a point - anyone who driven a BMW made in the last 10 years will have no problem operating it. I can’t fault they way it’s put together either - definitely no trim creaks in mine, but I much prefer Mercedes interiors, which I know is not a popular opinion. absolutely loved the interior of my 2019 E class, even though it did creak in places!! It looked expensive, to me at least.

And surely all of these things will be leased because of the tax benefits. The M3 is ubiquitous because of that, not because of the way it’s put together or drives. It’s the modern day Mondeo.

[charltjr]

I suspect it's the wheel and tyre combo on the M60 vs the other models. If you go for the big wheels on the i4 M50 it absolutely murders the range, knocks something like 25% off IIRC which just seems ridiculous.

[Mahalo]

I would concur with those who say that Harry does not really like or understand Ev's. When my i4M50 was replaced due to faults, my preference was to go for the i5M60 as I previous had a 530E - as soon as the price and figures came out I felt that the price was way over the top and the figures in terms of efficiency/range did not make sense. I drove an i540 and it was comfortable but really bland. It felt big and the weight was even more obvious than the i4. In the end I chose to replace my i4M50 with another i4M50 which looks like a better decision than going with the i5.

[andy43]

charltjr said:

I suspect it's the wheel and tyre combo on the M60 vs the other models. If you go for the big wheels on the i4 M50 it absolutely murders the range, knocks something like 25% off IIRC which just seems ridiculous.

Tesla was the same - going from 19 to 21s took at least 10% off from memory, probably more.
Must be the same with ICE.

[andy43]

SWoll said:

andy43 said:

He got 2.1 miles per kWh. It was cold, but that’s still pants. My 2018 P100D was doing 2.0 to 3.3, even with another 100-150kg and big wheels. This isn’t progress. Pace? Tesla was 60 in 2.5 and apart from fart noises was a lot more grown up on the infotainment side of things from what I could see there - inside it looked like Stringfellows in the 80’s. This vs the inventiveness, design flair and creativity of the i3 is like comparing the dull as ditchwater new Honda ENYOne thing to the Honda E. It won’t sell, but it might lease well until the residuals are worked out.

Pointless comparing to a ground up EV like the P100D in many ways as everything will always come off second best for efficiency. The P100D was also a £115k car back in 2016..

The efficiency numbers are also going to be very dependent on how and where the car is being driven of course and what options are fitted.

The Tesla was designed over a decade ago so I’d imagine any benefits of being a ground up EV design are minimal by now. That’s my point - the i5 isn’t moving the game on at all. P100D was £130k then dropped £50k to about £80k IIRC, but it was incredibly quick and had a 100kw battery… and here we are with similar range, less efficiency, less acceleration, a boring saloon body and nothing new apart from a German voiceover and silly lights.

[SWoll]

andy43 said:

The Tesla was designed over a decade ago so I’d imagine any benefits of being a ground up EV design are minimal by now. That’s my point - the i5 isn’t moving the game on at all. P100D was £130k then dropped £50k to about £80k IIRC, but it was incredibly quick and had a 100kw battery… and here we are with similar range, less efficiency, less acceleration, a boring saloon body and nothing new apart from a German voiceover and silly lights.

Of course it isn't? It's a shared platform EV from a big manufacturer based on an ICE car that retails for < £50k. Anyone expecting it to move the game on is being hopelessly optimistic.

[thecremeegg]

I usually love Harry's videos but he has a real hate-boner for EVs (apart from the ipace for obvious reasons). All his points bar the price were pretty poor, and the reason his efficiency was so low was he was hooning it the whole time! Try that in a V8 and you'll have single digit MPG...
I find the current idrive system really easy to use, and I just have a shortcut set to turn off lane assist etc - takes 1 second when you turn the car on.

Bit poor from Harry overall I think.

[Mahalo]

charltjr said:

I suspect it's the wheel and tyre combo on the M60 vs the other models. If you go for the big wheels on the i4 M50 it absolutely murders the range, knocks something like 25% off IIRC which just seems ridiculous.

In my experience, the 20" wheels do not knock 25% of the range. On the WLTP figures that BMW quote they knock off 16% range. In terms of real life driving, my first i4M50 was on 19" wheels, at 80% charge I would see a range of 226 miles or so on the GOM, my 2nd i4 M50 is on 20" wheels and at 80% I see typically a range of 191 miles or so on the GOM. These figures support the 16% drop in range between the 19" and 20". In both cases you can achieve more range as you drive the car (unless you hoon about). Short journeys in either the 19" or 20" shod car are the worst for poor efficiency.