Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
I think in terms of the masses, a lot don't know the difference.
They just don't want a silly electric car, so hydrogen must be better..
that's not really what i'm getting it. i mean the belief it's just a different fuel with full exhaust sounds, manual gearbox, the works.They just don't want a silly electric car, so hydrogen must be better..
tamore said:
TheDeuce said:
I think in terms of the masses, a lot don't know the difference.
They just don't want a silly electric car, so hydrogen must be better..
that's not really what i'm getting it. i mean the belief it's just a different fuel with full exhaust sounds, manual gearbox, the works.They just don't want a silly electric car, so hydrogen must be better..
Well in that case they'd frankly be better to stick with petrol! H2 ice is just hopeless.
I think almost all those pinning their hopes on hydrogen for personal transport, however utilised, have some gaping holes in their knowledge.
TheDeuce said:
Oh sorry.
Well in that case they'd frankly be better to stick with petrol! H2 ice is just hopeless.
I think almost all those pinning their hopes on hydrogen for personal transport, however utilised, have some gaping holes in their knowledge.
100%, but it's pushed by the ill informed to the ill informed. ministers bandy it round like a panacea. Well in that case they'd frankly be better to stick with petrol! H2 ice is just hopeless.
I think almost all those pinning their hopes on hydrogen for personal transport, however utilised, have some gaping holes in their knowledge.
pesky physics
tamore said:
100%, but it's pushed by the ill informed to the ill informed. ministers bandy it round like a panacea.
pesky physics
Half the time it's pushed by the perfectly well informed to the ill informed, typically local authority dimwits with easy access to other people's money meant for other things. Much like the synthetic fuel scams and a whole raft of eco investment scams around renewables. pesky physics
DonkeyApple said:
tamore said:
100%, but it's pushed by the ill informed to the ill informed. ministers bandy it round like a panacea.
pesky physics
Half the time it's pushed by the perfectly well informed to the ill informed, typically local authority dimwits with easy access to other people's money meant for other things. Much like the synthetic fuel scams and a whole raft of eco investment scams around renewables. pesky physics
tamore said:
TheDeuce said:
Oh sorry.
Well in that case they'd frankly be better to stick with petrol! H2 ice is just hopeless.
I think almost all those pinning their hopes on hydrogen for personal transport, however utilised, have some gaping holes in their knowledge.
100%, but it's pushed by the ill informed to the ill informed. ministers bandy it round like a panacea. Well in that case they'd frankly be better to stick with petrol! H2 ice is just hopeless.
I think almost all those pinning their hopes on hydrogen for personal transport, however utilised, have some gaping holes in their knowledge.
pesky physics
Edited by dvs_dave on Saturday 1st June 23:49
it really annoys me that someone who i think is intelligent, thoughtful and a decent bloke like james may can even consider H2 as a potential transition target, especially for passenger vehicles. i actually think batteries will win out in 99% of cases where ICE is currently used. not today's batteries, but ones not too far down the line.
TheDeuce said:
Evanivitch said:
TheDeuce said:
The problem is, even if massive quantities of natural hydrogen were prevalent, the extraction, compression, transportation and end point delivery to H2 vehicles, and then conversion to electricity in the vehicle... is still less efficient than just plain old electricity start to finish.
Are you running cars on scalextric?Evanivitch said:
TheDeuce said:
Evanivitch said:
TheDeuce said:
The problem is, even if massive quantities of natural hydrogen were prevalent, the extraction, compression, transportation and end point delivery to H2 vehicles, and then conversion to electricity in the vehicle... is still less efficient than just plain old electricity start to finish.
Are you running cars on scalextric?Who cares what the environmental impact of the battery production is!? Either it's the most environmentally friendly solution or it isn't - and it is.
I'm afraid I don't see how you making your own point about the one time environmental issues around battery production has anything to do with my point about a undlessly environmently unfriendly use of H2.
dvs_dave said:
Here’s a photo of a Toyota Mirai with the underbody panels removed, exposing the three 10,000 psi the H2 tanks. If it were an H2ICE, it would require double this amount of onboard H2 storage to be able to maintain the same range. Let alone the total unviability of a mass green hydrogen production and distribution infrastructure to support it.
Those tanks are bombs. It's quite unnerving seeing a bunch of them strapped to a car.TheDeuce said:
dvs_dave said:
Here’s a photo of a Toyota Mirai with the underbody panels removed, exposing the three 10,000 psi the H2 tanks. If it were an H2ICE, it would require double this amount of onboard H2 storage to be able to maintain the same range. Let alone the total unviability of a mass green hydrogen production and distribution infrastructure to support it.
Those tanks are bombs. It's quite unnerving seeing a bunch of them strapped to a car.KABOOOM!!!
TheDeuce said:
No, it's just accurate. The battery forms part of the final machine, which is where the electricity ends up.
Who cares what the environmental impact of the battery production is!? Either it's the most environmentally friendly solution or it isn't - and it is.
I'm afraid I don't see how you making your own point about the one time environmental issues around battery production has anything to do with my point about a undlessly environmently unfriendly use of H2.
Because by your own sweeping statements you believe that white hydrogen has a greater environmental impact than BEV.Who cares what the environmental impact of the battery production is!? Either it's the most environmentally friendly solution or it isn't - and it is.
I'm afraid I don't see how you making your own point about the one time environmental issues around battery production has anything to do with my point about a undlessly environmently unfriendly use of H2.
But that's because you're using a 100% energy input and assuming you're just skipping the electrolysis. That isn't the case, because the hydrogen already exists. Your inputs are just extraction.
DonkeyApple said:
How would any white hydrogen reserves find their way into private car transport and why?
Exactly!That was the point I made - even if hydrogen was plentiful and free, the moment you try and pressurise and distribute it for personal transport, you're in the back foot compared to BEV, the fast majority of which will never need any form of distribution other than the grid we already have.
It's getting daft at this point, it's hard to believe there are still people trying to find a new way to legitimise their belief in hydrogen as fuel for the masses, it's just so hopelessly impractical.
Evanivitch said:
TheDeuce said:
No, it's just accurate. The battery forms part of the final machine, which is where the electricity ends up.
Who cares what the environmental impact of the battery production is!? Either it's the most environmentally friendly solution or it isn't - and it is.
I'm afraid I don't see how you making your own point about the one time environmental issues around battery production has anything to do with my point about a undlessly environmently unfriendly use of H2.
Because by your own sweeping statements you believe that white hydrogen has a greater environmental impact than BEV.Who cares what the environmental impact of the battery production is!? Either it's the most environmentally friendly solution or it isn't - and it is.
I'm afraid I don't see how you making your own point about the one time environmental issues around battery production has anything to do with my point about a undlessly environmently unfriendly use of H2.
But that's because you're using a 100% energy input and assuming you're just skipping the electrolysis. That isn't the case, because the hydrogen already exists. Your inputs are just extraction.
ks. Extraction plus pressurisation plus transport plus pumping into car plus conversion to power in the car.We're looking way beyond the archaic business of dragging fuel around the place to power each car, get a grip.
Edited by TheDeuce on Sunday 2nd June 01:07
TheDeuce said:
DonkeyApple said:
How would any white hydrogen reserves find their way into private car transport and why?
Exactly!That was the point I made - even if hydrogen was plentiful and free, the moment you try and pressurise and distribute it for personal transport, you're in the back foot compared to BEV, the fast majority of which will never need any form of distribution other than the grid we already have.
It's getting daft at this point, it's hard to believe there are still people trying to find a new way to legitimise their belief in hydrogen as fuel for the masses, it's just so hopelessly impractical.
dvs_dave said:
Yup. Them getting ruptured in an accident is one thing. Imagine one that’s on fire, or caught up in a car park fire, for example.
KABOOOM!!!
Sadly that might have to happen for people to finally drop this hydrogen car nonsense.KABOOOM!!!
The thing is there are so few of them on the road (even though so many people here seem to say they'd have one) it might never happen, thankfully.
autumnsum said:
dvs_dave said:
Yup. Them getting ruptured in an accident is one thing. Imagine one that’s on fire, or caught up in a car park fire, for example.
KABOOOM!!!
Sadly that might have to happen for people to finally drop this hydrogen car nonsense.KABOOOM!!!
The thing is there are so few of them on the road (even though so many people here seem to say they'd have one) it might never happen, thankfully.
You can't create an efficient supply chain and dense infrastructure if only an extreme minority of people will ever need it.
If it wasn't for environmental impact, cost, convenience and safety H2 for personal transport would be great
autumnsum said:
dvs_dave said:
Yup. Them getting ruptured in an accident is one thing. Imagine one that’s on fire, or caught up in a car park fire, for example.
KABOOOM!!!
Sadly that might have to happen for people to finally drop this hydrogen car nonsense.KABOOOM!!!
The thing is there are so few of them on the road (even though so many people here seem to say they'd have one) it might never happen, thankfully.
Someone has actually done some proper science on this. Batteries may burn, but atleast they don't send out a shockwave that measure 170kPa to range of over 10 meters, with a 7kg bit of wreckage ending up nearly 40meters from the point of combustion. The paper goes into great details on how you could die from the shockwave (lungs exploding with blood appears to be the accepted worst outcome to a human body), but concludes essentially.
"human damage is expected to be limited to the ‘injury’ level but not the ‘fatality’ level".
It should be noted though real life events often prove the best static experiments wrong, I for one, don't want to be any where near one of these things when they go BOOM!
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/...
Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 2nd June 21:36
I found a picture the 7.3kg 'wreckage', exhibit g, it appears to be a shredded alloy wheel which now looks like a massive Shuriken that's flown nearly 40 meters. I cannot imagine how much damage that would do to soft flesh in a school, shopping centre, work car park, basically any where with people.
Do people seriously want these things driving around on public roads? How big a blast radius would one of the hydrogen HGVs produce if this was what a Hyundai can do? It's literally an IED disguised as personal transportation.
Do people seriously want these things driving around on public roads? How big a blast radius would one of the hydrogen HGVs produce if this was what a Hyundai can do? It's literally an IED disguised as personal transportation.
Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 2nd June 21:45
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