VW to scale down production of evs
Discussion
SpeckledJim said:
kambites said:
If it was only Tesla, VAG wouldn't be in half as much trouble as they are. They're being assaulted from all sides - they've got Tesla out-Audiing Audi; the Korean brands out-VWing VW, and the Chinese brands out-Skodaing Skoda.
Nicely put VW needs to reinvent itself and forge a new identity. Gone are the days when a salesman in a showroom can repeatedly slam a golf door and hope someone buys it because they like the sound it makes.. These days people go online to see how a car they might be interested stacks up vs the competition and it's not going to take anyone very long to notice that across all the main metrics, an ID3 is bested by various Chinese and Korean cars.
Or in fact... Just use the VW name for the group and sack off the VW brand itself. They're far better focusing on the performance, executive and luxury segments with their other brands and giving up on cars for the people.
TheDeuce said:
Indeed! It's not much use making 'cars for the people' (volks wagen) in Europe, when the people across the far east are making as good cars, for about 2/3 the price, for the people of the world.
VW needs to reinvent itself and forge a new identity. Gone are the days when a salesman in a showroom can repeatedly slam a golf door and hope someone buys it because they like the sound it makes.. These days people go online to see how a car they might be interested stacks up vs the competition and it's not going to take anyone very long to notice that across all the main metrics, an ID3 is bested by various Chinese and Korean cars.
Or in fact... Just use the VW name for the group and sack off the VW brand itself. They're far better focusing on the performance, executive and luxury segments with their other brands and giving up on cars for the people.
But Ford is expanding EV production in Germany and is building the VW based Explorer. VW needs to reinvent itself and forge a new identity. Gone are the days when a salesman in a showroom can repeatedly slam a golf door and hope someone buys it because they like the sound it makes.. These days people go online to see how a car they might be interested stacks up vs the competition and it's not going to take anyone very long to notice that across all the main metrics, an ID3 is bested by various Chinese and Korean cars.
Or in fact... Just use the VW name for the group and sack off the VW brand itself. They're far better focusing on the performance, executive and luxury segments with their other brands and giving up on cars for the people.
https://www.carscoops.com/2023/06/ford-to-build-25...
TheDeuce said:
Indeed! It's not much use making 'cars for the people' (volks wagen) in Europe, when the people across the far east are making as good cars, for about 2/3 the price, for the people of the world.
VW needs to reinvent itself and forge a new identity. Gone are the days when a salesman in a showroom can repeatedly slam a golf door and hope someone buys it because they like the sound it makes.. These days people go online to see how a car they might be interested stacks up vs the competition and it's not going to take anyone very long to notice that across all the main metrics, an ID3 is bested by various Chinese and Korean cars.
Or in fact... Just use the VW name for the group and sack off the VW brand itself. They're far better focusing on the performance, executive and luxury segments with their other brands and giving up on cars for the people.
Unfortunately or fortunately the Chinese can make any car at 2/3rd’s the price and it’s a lot easier to compete on value higher up the food chain. I wouldn’t want to be BMW or Mercedes with their largely unexceptional products with a heritage that doesn’t really mean anything anymore. When everything is a bit meh you can just buy the Chinese meh. As we can see with the “Lotus” Eletre, they can match the best already. VW needs to reinvent itself and forge a new identity. Gone are the days when a salesman in a showroom can repeatedly slam a golf door and hope someone buys it because they like the sound it makes.. These days people go online to see how a car they might be interested stacks up vs the competition and it's not going to take anyone very long to notice that across all the main metrics, an ID3 is bested by various Chinese and Korean cars.
Or in fact... Just use the VW name for the group and sack off the VW brand itself. They're far better focusing on the performance, executive and luxury segments with their other brands and giving up on cars for the people.
I’m mostly surprised that the Chinese bother buying up English brands. What does a Chinese MG have to do with whatever MG used to make? Start with a new fresh brand and rock on. Same with Lotus obviously. Rivian didn’t have to buy an old American brand to start making pickups that everyone raves about.
DMZ said:
I’m mostly surprised that the Chinese bother buying up English brands. What does a Chinese MG have to do with whatever MG used to make? Start with a new fresh brand and rock on. Same with Lotus obviously. Rivian didn’t have to buy an old American brand to start making pickups that everyone raves about.
I think there's a reason it's MG rather than another Chinese brand that has become one of the fastest-growing brands in Europe. Whilst building good cars is a prerequisite, having a recognised brand certainly helps too. Whilst SAIC "bought" MG, I can't imagine they paid anything significant for it!
DMZ said:
TheDeuce said:
Indeed! It's not much use making 'cars for the people' (volks wagen) in Europe, when the people across the far east are making as good cars, for about 2/3 the price, for the people of the world.
VW needs to reinvent itself and forge a new identity. Gone are the days when a salesman in a showroom can repeatedly slam a golf door and hope someone buys it because they like the sound it makes.. These days people go online to see how a car they might be interested stacks up vs the competition and it's not going to take anyone very long to notice that across all the main metrics, an ID3 is bested by various Chinese and Korean cars.
Or in fact... Just use the VW name for the group and sack off the VW brand itself. They're far better focusing on the performance, executive and luxury segments with their other brands and giving up on cars for the people.
Unfortunately or fortunately the Chinese can make any car at 2/3rd’s the price and it’s a lot easier to compete on value higher up the food chain. I wouldn’t want to be BMW or Mercedes with their largely unexceptional products with a heritage that doesn’t really mean anything anymore. When everything is a bit meh you can just buy the Chinese meh. As we can see with the “Lotus” Eletre, they can match the best already. VW needs to reinvent itself and forge a new identity. Gone are the days when a salesman in a showroom can repeatedly slam a golf door and hope someone buys it because they like the sound it makes.. These days people go online to see how a car they might be interested stacks up vs the competition and it's not going to take anyone very long to notice that across all the main metrics, an ID3 is bested by various Chinese and Korean cars.
Or in fact... Just use the VW name for the group and sack off the VW brand itself. They're far better focusing on the performance, executive and luxury segments with their other brands and giving up on cars for the people.
I’m mostly surprised that the Chinese bother buying up English brands. What does a Chinese MG have to do with whatever MG used to make? Start with a new fresh brand and rock on. Same with Lotus obviously. Rivian didn’t have to buy an old American brand to start making pickups that everyone raves about.
As for BMW, they're pushing further upmarket I would say. Merc are too. They can focus more on luxury, individuality and performance in order to avoid hitting the wave of Chinese alternatives square on. VW can't because their entire brands is based upon cars for the typical driver at a fair price and good level of quality. That's EXACTLY what the Chinese are now providing but for a far better price.
Zero Fuchs said:
Let's not forget BMW's masterstroke of buying 4WD knowledge that they never had and the Mini brand.
People have now long forgotten why BMW bought a British brand for their own gain. Except they spat what they didn't need back out.
They left us a pretty decent (at the time) Range Rover at least. In fact I'd say that was the car that ultimately saved Land Rover, who could never back then have afforded to develop a new Rangie themselves.People have now long forgotten why BMW bought a British brand for their own gain. Except they spat what they didn't need back out.
My favourite from that era was Ford buying Jaguar, attempting to sell re-styled Mondeo's as Jag's and then giving up and selling to Tata. Through a quirk in the sale process Jag managed to hang on to the rights to continue to use the heated windscreen tech Ford had previously had all wrapped up for themselves! I recall Ford tried to get it back but it was all legit, they had effectively given it away. These things probably happened a lot when everyone was acquiring/breaking/merging everyone else in the industry.
The only one that really pissed me off was GM buying Saab, and then doing nothing with it other than flogging re-badged GM cars that I already hated.
Yes definitely. I had a Saab 9-3 from before the GM takeover and loved it. It wasn't a drivers car but I still loved everything about it. They went a bit naff after thatnand even more sad they no longer exist.
It's funny but I felt that BMW stripped out what was good for them and then let go what wasn't. But I'm a cynical old sod
and you're probably right. JLR are still a bit shonky below the surface but they turn out some desirable looking cars. I'd never touch one but can see why people do.
It's funny but I felt that BMW stripped out what was good for them and then let go what wasn't. But I'm a cynical old sod
and you're probably right. JLR are still a bit shonky below the surface but they turn out some desirable looking cars. I'd never touch one but can see why people do.Zero Fuchs said:
Yes definitely. I had a Saab 9-3 from before the GM takeover and loved it. It wasn't a drivers car but I still loved everything about it. They went a bit naff after thatnand even more sad they no longer exist.
It's funny but I felt that BMW stripped out what was good for them and then let go what wasn't. But I'm a cynical old sod and you're probably right. JLR are still a bit shonky below the surface but they turn out some desirable looking cars. I'd never touch one but can see why people do.
Somewhat in defence of BMW, they have done a cracking job of revitalising Mini and Rolls Royce. The same can be said for VW with Bentley.It's funny but I felt that BMW stripped out what was good for them and then let go what wasn't. But I'm a cynical old sod
and you're probably right. JLR are still a bit shonky below the surface but they turn out some desirable looking cars. I'd never touch one but can see why people do.Zero Fuchs said:
It's funny but I felt that BMW stripped out what was good for them and then let go what wasn't. But I'm a cynical old sod and you're probably right. JLR are still a bit shonky below the surface but they turn out some desirable looking cars. I'd never touch one but can see why people do.
I love them as lease cars, lease cars within warranty and you're probably right. JLR are still a bit shonky below the surface but they turn out some desirable looking cars. I'd never touch one but can see why people do.
I used to do a bit of work for JLR, I learned a lot about how they design cars and the people behind the process - there is a lot of passion there and, when the cars work.. they're probably the finest premium cars a British driver can enjoy, not least because they're designed and tested by people in Britain on British roads for the most part. They also always throw some sort of fun gadget/talking point at each new car - all very British indeed.
Don't ever pass on the chance to own a fun Jag or well specced LR. Just keep it in warranty. If it's an aftermarket warranty, you'll be needing the gold/diamond, whatever, premium policy that includes literally everything that will almost certainly explode/fall off/burn out/develop a mind of it's own or, on later inspection, prove to not be working because it was never connected in the first place.
NB: There is an adhesive called CT1 which does a far better job of reattaching loose bodywork, badges and number plates than the stuff the factory and main dealers insist on using
Mikehig said:
Zero Fuchs said:
Yes definitely. I had a Saab 9-3 from before the GM takeover and loved it. It wasn't a drivers car but I still loved everything about it. They went a bit naff after thatnand even more sad they no longer exist.
It's funny but I felt that BMW stripped out what was good for them and then let go what wasn't. But I'm a cynical old sod and you're probably right. JLR are still a bit shonky below the surface but they turn out some desirable looking cars. I'd never touch one but can see why people do.
Somewhat in defence of BMW, they have done a cracking job of revitalising Mini and Rolls Royce. The same can be said for VW with Bentley.It's funny but I felt that BMW stripped out what was good for them and then let go what wasn't. But I'm a cynical old sod
and you're probably right. JLR are still a bit shonky below the surface but they turn out some desirable looking cars. I'd never touch one but can see why people do.If I weren't an engineer and a bit OCD on reliability, I think I'd happily buy any of the Jag range from the past 5-10 years. The best thing they did IMO was shake off the old man image of the X Type and walnut trim. Modern Jags from the XE right up to the F Type and even e Pace are lovely to look at and sound great to drive too. But the horror stories are a real shame when even brands like Alfa have supposed raised their game.
But yes, maybe an F Type on lease one day!
But yes, maybe an F Type on lease one day!
Zero Fuchs said:
If I weren't an engineer and a bit OCD on reliability, I think I'd happily buy any of the Jag range from the past 5-10 years. The best thing they did IMO was shake off the old man image of the X Type and walnut trim. Modern Jags from the XE right up to the F Type and even e Pace are lovely to look at and sound great to drive too. But the horror stories are a real shame when even brands like Alfa have supposed raised their game.
But yes, maybe an F Type on lease one day!
I've had an iPace for the last three years, fantastic car in every regard from a daily drivers POV - it's even surprisingly competent off road and an all round astonishingly good drive.But yes, maybe an F Type on lease one day!
I'm also an engineer and I would assess it as, actually, very well designed for the most part, the interior fit and finish is excellent, as is the exterior design.
Some things did go wrong though... the aircon failed, then failed again. The number plate fell off, the power boot once opened as it should, then crashed down on my head as it should not while I was leaning into the car. The rear bumper started to come away where it meets the rear arches - the clips had broken due to the power of the air troubling them.
I know full well why these things happen. It's because they're a tiny car firm and they can't afford anything like the research and testing budget of the giant car firms. They can't fly 50 development cars to every corner of the globe and have someone drive them under all conditions for 50k miles to see what breaks, and even if they could they'd likely be so far a long the pre-production process that some known issues would be baked in. I think, by contrast, Mercedes spend something like £20m Euro's a day on their R&D, which sounds like a lot but I bet per car sold it's less of an expense than whatever JLR spend - but on each model in the Merc line-up, it's a lot more. That's why their cars have the finest infotainment systems and also why the number plates stay attached.
Thanks for the honest account and in context, they're probably performing as you'd expect, but perhaps with better build quality.
My wife would have an ePace in a heartbeat. We sat in one when they first came out and it's a stunning car, inside and out. Even now it still looks fresh and I still look twice when I see one on the road.
I'm going to contradict myself here but there are brands where I'd actually accept the potential unreliability. I don't have the money for such playthings but a Morgan three wheeler (with the V twin) would be top of the list, as would a Plus 4 or Lotus Elise. I think the slight difference (in my mind anyway) is that you're buying something that's definitely small batch, whereas JLR do a great job of looking like a similarly big brand as their competitors.
My wife would have an ePace in a heartbeat. We sat in one when they first came out and it's a stunning car, inside and out. Even now it still looks fresh and I still look twice when I see one on the road.
I'm going to contradict myself here but there are brands where I'd actually accept the potential unreliability. I don't have the money for such playthings but a Morgan three wheeler (with the V twin) would be top of the list, as would a Plus 4 or Lotus Elise. I think the slight difference (in my mind anyway) is that you're buying something that's definitely small batch, whereas JLR do a great job of looking like a similarly big brand as their competitors.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
AbsolutelyVW group are No1 for EV sales in Europe so this is kind of a canary in the coalmine moment. I wouldn't say demand has plummeted, it's that it's not rising at projected rates as you point out.
It shouldn't come as a huge surprise. We had already seen demand waning for Tesla around this time last year. I thought it was maybe just the brand but with their business model, it was maybe more clear to see whereas VW at that time had a 12 month backlog which they are now clearing more and more.
Growth has slowed and it's caused some head scratching. Fuel has come down in price, electric is still very expensive so that switch in running costs is clearly a factor too. And then you've got EVs getting bad press in the tabloids etc so there's a few headwinds which may be short term perhaps.
Other posters calling for ditching the actual VW brand is just insane IMO. Imagine if Sainsbury's said they're only selling branded food from now on and ditching their own brand - commercial suicide.
VW is a coveted brand and I'm sure they'll plot their course just fine.
Zero Fuchs said:
Thanks for the honest account and in context, they're probably performing as you'd expect, but perhaps with better build quality.
My wife would have an ePace in a heartbeat. We sat in one when they first came out and it's a stunning car, inside and out. Even now it still looks fresh and I still look twice when I see one on the road.
I'm going to contradict myself here but there are brands where I'd actually accept the potential unreliability. I don't have the money for such playthings but a Morgan three wheeler (with the V twin) would be top of the list, as would a Plus 4 or Lotus Elise. I think the slight difference (in my mind anyway) is that you're buying something that's definitely small batch, whereas JLR do a great job of looking like a similarly big brand as their competitors.
My dad had a 1998 Plus 4 from the factory. Sold earlier this year as he’s now living in a care home for people with dementia.My wife would have an ePace in a heartbeat. We sat in one when they first came out and it's a stunning car, inside and out. Even now it still looks fresh and I still look twice when I see one on the road.
I'm going to contradict myself here but there are brands where I'd actually accept the potential unreliability. I don't have the money for such playthings but a Morgan three wheeler (with the V twin) would be top of the list, as would a Plus 4 or Lotus Elise. I think the slight difference (in my mind anyway) is that you're buying something that's definitely small batch, whereas JLR do a great job of looking like a similarly big brand as their competitors.
It cost about £28k new after a 5 year wait. All the bells and whistles. It was one of the very few Plus 4 s to have superformed aluminium wings.
I went in that car precisely once. It was dreadful. The ride was like being on an unsprung bike. The acceleration was good but the visibility meant you couldn’t take advantage on country lanes.
My parents managed about 90k miles in the 20-odd years they drove that car. God know how. What a piece of s
t.VW haven’t helped themselves recently. I’d had an egolf as a company car that I was reasonably happy with, so on moving companies I put an order in for an id3 on a personal lease.
I had the id3 on order for two years before I lost patience and cancelled. It wasn’t that I was wedded to the id3, but I got a good lease deal and I was fine with the known compromises given it was a lease and the price.
However communication on the deal was terrible. Neither the dealer nor lease company could get a squeak out of vw, various promised dates came and went, yet they were shipping other trim versions of the id3.
In the end I gave up and bought an older petrol car as a stop gap for a couple of years. since then there have been similar cars I prefer that have been launched like the mg4 and Megane
Once supply and price madness calms down I’ll probably have another go at leasing, but VW look expensive at the moment for a car which is ok, but nothing particularly special.
I had the id3 on order for two years before I lost patience and cancelled. It wasn’t that I was wedded to the id3, but I got a good lease deal and I was fine with the known compromises given it was a lease and the price.
However communication on the deal was terrible. Neither the dealer nor lease company could get a squeak out of vw, various promised dates came and went, yet they were shipping other trim versions of the id3.
In the end I gave up and bought an older petrol car as a stop gap for a couple of years. since then there have been similar cars I prefer that have been launched like the mg4 and Megane
Once supply and price madness calms down I’ll probably have another go at leasing, but VW look expensive at the moment for a car which is ok, but nothing particularly special.
Najan51 said:
My dad had a 1998 Plus 4 from the factory. Sold earlier this year as he’s now living in a care home for people with dementia.
It cost about £28k new after a 5 year wait. All the bells and whistles. It was one of the very few Plus 4 s to have superformed aluminium wings.
I went in that car precisely once. It was dreadful. The ride was like being on an unsprung bike. The acceleration was good but the visibility meant you couldn’t take advantage on country lanes.
My parents managed about 90k miles in the 20-odd years they drove that car. God know how. What a piece of st.
Firstly, I'm really sorry about your dad and hope he's comfortable and being well cared for. My daughter works in dementia care so appreciate how difficult it can be.It cost about £28k new after a 5 year wait. All the bells and whistles. It was one of the very few Plus 4 s to have superformed aluminium wings.
I went in that car precisely once. It was dreadful. The ride was like being on an unsprung bike. The acceleration was good but the visibility meant you couldn’t take advantage on country lanes.
My parents managed about 90k miles in the 20-odd years they drove that car. God know how. What a piece of s
t.Thanks for the heads up. I've not actually driven a Plus 4 but love the styling and manufacturing. Have you ever visited the factory in Malvern? They make a lot more sense if you have.
I guess I'm just projecting my experience of driving a three wheeler. As a vehicle it makes no sense at all, except perhaps that the wheel configuration is correct for a three wheeled contraption. It doesn't handle particularly well, has little power, lacks grip, rattles and has no tech whatsoever. In every mechanically measurable way, it's not very good at all. But, flick that start switch, hear the V twin roar into life, set off and within 10 metres, none of that matters at all. I'm quite old now and have driven a fair few cars but nothing touches the three wheeler as it's undoubtedly the most engaging thing I've had the pleasure of piloting. Visceral doesn't quite describe it. Nothing does to be honest but the grin factor (for me anyway) went off the scale. A joyous thing indeed.
But back to VW. I love my i3s as it's entertaining to drive and is innovative in some way, as are lots of new EV's. I've driven my share of VAG motors and they all seem to suffer the same traits. Boring, lifeless, average, snooze boxes. They had a great opportunity to make something decent with the iD3 but it's unremarkable in every way. I honestly don't know how their engineers cope being told to produce something so mediocre and not advance the industry in any way.
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