Hybrid's - to plug or not to plug
Discussion
paralla said:
I’m going to try one more time…..
This is my husbands 2023 Toyota CH-R GR Sport 2.0L. It has a 2.0L petrol engine, a 0.9kWh battery, it’s a hybrid that you don’t plug in. It’s done 1000 miles. It does 60mpg just by putting petrol in it.
It has 180bhp, does 0-60mph in 7.8 seconds, weighs 1,485 kg and the e-CVT means it’s very smooth and quiet, it’s actually pretty nice to drive. It can run for short periods on just the battery but the majority of the time its engine is running.
This is a loaner 2024 Toyota CH-R Excel 2.0L PHEV that we had for two weeks before the red one arrived. It was brand new and we put 1600 miles on it.
It has the same 2.0L petrol engine as the red one, it has a 13.8kWh battery, it’s a hybrid that you plug in. It has 232bhp, does 0-60mph in 7.4 seconds, weighs 1650kg and the e-CVT means it’s very smooth and quiet, it’s also actually pretty nice to drive. It can run for 41 miles on just the battery and use no fuel at all. After the battery is flat it does 65mpg.
Because it has a bigger battery it also has a bigger electric motor, this allows it to accelerate much harder on just the motor/battery than the red one before the petrol engine kicks in, even when the battery is indicating 0% charge. It always saves a bit of battery for this.
The bigger motor and battery allow it to regenerate and store more power when decelerating or going downhill.
If you plug the PHEV in to charge it uses less fuel, is cheaper to run, is faster, is more refined and generally nicer to drive.
If you don’t plug the PHEV in it’s still faster and more refined than the hybrid but costs the same in petrol as the hybrid.
The PHEV cost £12,000 more than the red hybrid.
We bought the red hybrid instead of the white PHEV because it was £12,000 cheaper and the safety systems and driver aids in the white one were infuriating, in the red one they either stay off once turned off or are much easier to turn off using a physical button rather than a deep dive into the menu system at the beginning of every drive.
If you think it will get plugged in a PHEV makes sense if you can stomach the higher up front cost but you need to keep it a long time before you will recover the higher purchase price. We only keep cars for as long as the warranty so the higher purchase price of the PHEV wasn’t justified.
Increasingly I think people are more likely to consider leasing, so the monthly difference in price will be easily offset in fuel savings for anyone that can plug in and do mostly electric only miles.This is my husbands 2023 Toyota CH-R GR Sport 2.0L. It has a 2.0L petrol engine, a 0.9kWh battery, it’s a hybrid that you don’t plug in. It’s done 1000 miles. It does 60mpg just by putting petrol in it.
It has 180bhp, does 0-60mph in 7.8 seconds, weighs 1,485 kg and the e-CVT means it’s very smooth and quiet, it’s actually pretty nice to drive. It can run for short periods on just the battery but the majority of the time its engine is running.
This is a loaner 2024 Toyota CH-R Excel 2.0L PHEV that we had for two weeks before the red one arrived. It was brand new and we put 1600 miles on it.
It has the same 2.0L petrol engine as the red one, it has a 13.8kWh battery, it’s a hybrid that you plug in. It has 232bhp, does 0-60mph in 7.4 seconds, weighs 1650kg and the e-CVT means it’s very smooth and quiet, it’s also actually pretty nice to drive. It can run for 41 miles on just the battery and use no fuel at all. After the battery is flat it does 65mpg.
Because it has a bigger battery it also has a bigger electric motor, this allows it to accelerate much harder on just the motor/battery than the red one before the petrol engine kicks in, even when the battery is indicating 0% charge. It always saves a bit of battery for this.
The bigger motor and battery allow it to regenerate and store more power when decelerating or going downhill.
If you plug the PHEV in to charge it uses less fuel, is cheaper to run, is faster, is more refined and generally nicer to drive.
If you don’t plug the PHEV in it’s still faster and more refined than the hybrid but costs the same in petrol as the hybrid.
The PHEV cost £12,000 more than the red hybrid.
We bought the red hybrid instead of the white PHEV because it was £12,000 cheaper and the safety systems and driver aids in the white one were infuriating, in the red one they either stay off once turned off or are much easier to turn off using a physical button rather than a deep dive into the menu system at the beginning of every drive.
If you think it will get plugged in a PHEV makes sense if you can stomach the higher up front cost but you need to keep it a long time before you will recover the higher purchase price. We only keep cars for as long as the warranty so the higher purchase price of the PHEV wasn’t justified.
At a glance a personal lease is sub £400pm and probably can be haggled down to £350 with a bit of effort. Deduct the fuel savings from that and the balance is almost certainly less than either car would lose to depreciation each month.
And as a company car it's a complete joke brainer to go for the PHEV, which attracts significantly lower BIK.
TheDeuce said:
Increasingly I think people are more likely to consider leasing, so the monthly difference in price will be easily offset in fuel savings for anyone that can plug in and do mostly electric only miles.
At a glance a personal lease is sub £400pm and probably can be haggled down to £350 with a bit of effort. Deduct the fuel savings from that and the balance is almost certainly less than either car would lose to depreciation each month.
And as a company car it's a complete joke brainer to go for the PHEV, which attracts significantly lower BIK.
The leased company car thing is 100% valid, the PHEV is a total no brainer but the OP hasn’t mentioned personal leasing or it being a company car.At a glance a personal lease is sub £400pm and probably can be haggled down to £350 with a bit of effort. Deduct the fuel savings from that and the balance is almost certainly less than either car would lose to depreciation each month.
And as a company car it's a complete joke brainer to go for the PHEV, which attracts significantly lower BIK.
paralla said:
TheDeuce said:
Increasingly I think people are more likely to consider leasing, so the monthly difference in price will be easily offset in fuel savings for anyone that can plug in and do mostly electric only miles.
At a glance a personal lease is sub £400pm and probably can be haggled down to £350 with a bit of effort. Deduct the fuel savings from that and the balance is almost certainly less than either car would lose to depreciation each month.
And as a company car it's a complete joke brainer to go for the PHEV, which attracts significantly lower BIK.
The leased company car thing is 100% valid, the PHEV is a total no brainer but the OP hasn’t mentioned personal leasing or it being a company car.At a glance a personal lease is sub £400pm and probably can be haggled down to £350 with a bit of effort. Deduct the fuel savings from that and the balance is almost certainly less than either car would lose to depreciation each month.
And as a company car it's a complete joke brainer to go for the PHEV, which attracts significantly lower BIK.
TheDeuce said:
GetCarter said:
I don't think anyone here has yet mentioned pre-conditioning (apols if they have).
Getting into a car at 21C with clear windows when it's -5C outside is bliss. I assume mild hybrids can't do that!
That's easily the biggest 'smug moment' when you have a PHEV or BEV Getting into a car at 21C with clear windows when it's -5C outside is bliss. I assume mild hybrids can't do that!
caziques said:
Ankh87 said:
Best of both worlds really.
My personal view is that PHEVs are in fact the worst of both worlds.Mrs Caziques wasn't that impressed when I bought her an early Leaf (ex Japan, imported to NZ). She could never get over the range anxiety (70 miles at best) - loved the low running costs and zero maintenance.
We bought a 50kW MGZSEV about eighteen months ago, 200 mile range - range anxiety gone.
Mrs Caziques use the MG, I use an eNV200, son uses Leaf, daughter has an Ioniq in Oz (and electric scooter). Other son is using the MG whilst Mrs C and I tour Europe - i suspect he may purchase something like an MG4 to replace his Golf GTi.
A PHEV is like an expensive comfort blanket for a lot of people - and the petrol consumption tends to to be high.
For power may as well get the petrol
For economy may as well go Electric.
A 25 mile battery range is just a tax dodge.
There’s a reason why most taxis are Prius.
RicksAlfas said:
Whataguy said:
I’d heard there were a lot of Mitsubishi PHEVs sold to companies as the choice was limited a few years ago.
They were great for the company car driver due to low costs, but some drivers didn’t seem to get how to use them.
I’d heard of cars at the end of the lease being collected and the charge cable was still in its wrapper as it had never been plugged in!
I think this was true with a lot of early company car PHEVs. The typical attitude being "I'm not using my electricity to charge a company car". They were great for the company car driver due to low costs, but some drivers didn’t seem to get how to use them.
I’d heard of cars at the end of the lease being collected and the charge cable was still in its wrapper as it had never been plugged in!
The manufacturers are wise to it now. We have a Formentor plug in at work and the warranty is explicit stating that the battery must be fully charged at least every 90 days otherwise the battery warranty is invalid. I bet many of those early PHEV's entering the used car market had poor batteries!
Our EV’s are probably regenerating 1kw for every 4kw used.
Downward said:
A 25 mile battery range is just a tax dodge.
A 25 mile quoted range is a bit tight on usability, a real world 25 mile range would cover an awful lot people's daily usage. But, yes, it does distort the official figures a long way from reality if it is being used for long distances (like a taxi, for example, rather than something used most of the time to do the school run / commute / local shops)otolith said:
Downward said:
A 25 mile battery range is just a tax dodge.
A 25 mile quoted range is a bit tight on usability, a real world 25 mile range would cover an awful lot people's daily usage. But, yes, it does distort the official figures a long way from reality if it is being used for long distances (like a taxi, for example, rather than something used most of the time to do the school run / commute / local shops)plfrench said:
Hence the reason hybrids are specifically excluded from the ZEV Mandate due to real world usage and factors like company car drivers just taking the tax break and never bothering to plug in PHEVs.
That, and even if you do plug it in it's not a ZEV if you exceed the electric range.otolith said:
plfrench said:
Hence the reason hybrids are specifically excluded from the ZEV Mandate due to real world usage and factors like company car drivers just taking the tax break and never bothering to plug in PHEVs.
That, and even if you do plug it in it's not a ZEV if you exceed the electric range.plfrench said:
otolith said:
plfrench said:
Hence the reason hybrids are specifically excluded from the ZEV Mandate due to real world usage and factors like company car drivers just taking the tax break and never bothering to plug in PHEVs.
That, and even if you do plug it in it's not a ZEV if you exceed the electric range.plfrench said:
Hence the reason hybrids are specifically excluded from the ZEV Mandate due to real world usage and factors like company car drivers just taking the tax break and never bothering to plug in PHEVs.
ZEV mandate is a joke when advertising standards say that even a BEV isn't a zero emissions vehicle!https://www.petersandpeters.com/case/asa-holds-tha...
Evanivitch said:
plfrench said:
Hence the reason hybrids are specifically excluded from the ZEV Mandate due to real world usage and factors like company car drivers just taking the tax break and never bothering to plug in PHEVs.
ZEV mandate is a joke when advertising standards say that even a BEV isn't a zero emissions vehicle!https://www.petersandpeters.com/case/asa-holds-tha...
"The ASA thought that consumers would believe that MG’s advert meant that all the vehicles listed in the advert were zero emissions. This was not correct for all of the vehicle types."
They did censure BMW for saying that electric vehicles were ZEVs on the basis you describe, though I'm not sure why an advertising industry quango's opinion on this outweighs the usage of the term in government publications and policy.
otolith said:
Surely that isn't the main basis of the judgement against MG;
"The ASA thought that consumers would believe that MG’s advert meant that all the vehicles listed in the advert were zero emissions. This was not correct for all of the vehicle types."
They did censure BMW for saying that electric vehicles were ZEVs on the basis you describe, though I'm not sure why an advertising industry quango's opinion on this outweighs the usage of the term in government publications and policy.
Apologies, bad example grabbed quickly from the net, but yes the ASA have said that "zero emissions" can't be used for advertising vehicles."The ASA thought that consumers would believe that MG’s advert meant that all the vehicles listed in the advert were zero emissions. This was not correct for all of the vehicle types."
They did censure BMW for saying that electric vehicles were ZEVs on the basis you describe, though I'm not sure why an advertising industry quango's opinion on this outweighs the usage of the term in government publications and policy.
GetCarter said:
I don't think anyone here has yet mentioned pre-conditioning (apols if they have).
Getting into a car at 21C with clear windows when it's -5C outside is bliss. I assume mild hybrids can't do that!
My mild-diesel FFRR has a fuel burning heater that does that without a wire Getting into a car at 21C with clear windows when it's -5C outside is bliss. I assume mild hybrids can't do that!
RicksAlfas said:
GetCarter said:
I don't think anyone here has yet mentioned pre-conditioning (apols if they have).
Getting into a car at 21C with clear windows when it's -5C outside is bliss. I assume mild hybrids can't do that!
Volvos can.... by starting their ICE!Getting into a car at 21C with clear windows when it's -5C outside is bliss. I assume mild hybrids can't do that!
An outdated UK law that defines the vehicle as requiring a licenced and insured driver to be in control if the ignition is on, on a public highway.
EV's have no ignition so automatically avoid such definition.
Interestingly, ignition being turned on is also an established way to prove a drunk had the intention to drive, if the police intervene before they actually move the car.
TheDeuce said:
Although you can technically be done for that, if the car is on a public highway at the time.
An outdated UK law that defines the vehicle as requiring a licenced and insured driver to be in control if the ignition is on, on a public highway.
EV's have no ignition so automatically avoid such definition.
Interestingly, ignition being turned on is also an established way to prove a drunk had the intention to drive, if the police intervene before they actually move the car.
Weak argument. How many EV’s get charged while on a public highway? Not many. An outdated UK law that defines the vehicle as requiring a licenced and insured driver to be in control if the ignition is on, on a public highway.
EV's have no ignition so automatically avoid such definition.
Interestingly, ignition being turned on is also an established way to prove a drunk had the intention to drive, if the police intervene before they actually move the car.
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