VW to scale down production of evs
Discussion
Hub said:
EVs are a more homogeneous product so there could be a real market share shake up in the future. Anyone mid market could really suffer with cheap Chinese makes making huge advances, wiping out established names and leaving a few desirable premium brands at the top.
I've said this in other threads. Glad someone else has made the same observation and shares the same view.Complacency due to brand loyalty and snobbery is going to be the demise of some car marques once its wears off as motorists realise how homogenous EVs, especially when Chinese marques offer well- designed, reliable and cheaper yet good quality alternatives.
TheRainMaker said:
Evanivitch said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You'd literally plug the destination into your Tesla App or ABetterRoutePlanner and away you go... It's really not complicated.
The flipside is that you can probably do a Christmas video call from the big TV in the car while spending it at Tebay nipping in and out of KFC for a festive bucket of muck?
Most are probably only driving the length of the country to ensure they don't get cut out of the will as they've already spent the money.
Alternatively, the less intelligent EV owners can get into the habit of asking the hundreds of thousands of completely competent humans how they managed to get to where they needed to go without ruining everyone's Christmas.
All those images ultimately show is that not everyone buying a Tesla is capable of looking after themselves or their family. Like the plonkers who would have spent the same time doing the walk of shame with a red petrol can. Idiots will do what idiots do.
DonkeyApple said:
TheRainMaker said:
Evanivitch said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You'd literally plug the destination into your Tesla App or ABetterRoutePlanner and away you go... It's really not complicated.The flipside is that you can probably do a Christmas video call from the big TV in the car while spending it at Tebay nipping in and out of KFC for a festive bucket of muck?
Most are probably only driving the length of the country to ensure they don't get cut out of the will as they've already spent the money.
Alternatively, the less intelligent EV owners can get into the habit of asking the hundreds of thousands of completely competent humans how they managed to get to where they needed to go without ruining everyone's Christmas.
All those images ultimately show is that not everyone buying a Tesla is capable of looking after themselves or their family. Like the plonkers who would have spent the same time doing the walk of shame with a red petrol can. Idiots will do what idiots do.
quite a few Tesla owners would have purchased one with the normally excellent charging network in mind, the first time they probably would have used it was at Christmas, and it fell over for some of them.If it happens this year, they have no excuse.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
If your job is to make the charging network less crap, good stuff.I agree that in its current state it leaves a lot to be desired.
My job is to make the cars as good as they can be, so we are part of the same team essentially.
I've been posting in this sub-forum for about a decade now, so please excuse my posting style, I'm a bit jaded with the whole anti-EV thing TBH. More often than not it's simply poor knowledge or poor assumptions.
You mentioned in a later post about the huge energy demands.
The rule-of-thumb for UK EVs is 1% load increase on the grid per million electric cars.
That's either 3 TWh per million cars per annum or 300 MW per million cars as an average power consumption.
For ICEs it's roughly 10 TWh per million cars in terms of energy in the fuel we consume, i.e. 300-400 TWh per year as measured at the pumps.
More than all the electricity we currently consume across all sectors.
The 3 to 4 fold reduction in total energy demand (at the pumps/chargers) due to the massively higher energy efficiency of the electric drivetrain is what this is ALL about, because otherwise, you are absolutely correct, renewables will never cope.
Which is why the hydrogen/e-fuel pathways fall drastically short in offering a decarbonisation solution for passenger cars.
Renewables will cope with EVs, it's all the other sectors, particularly replacing gas-fired boilers where the real challenge lies.
For EVs, the main issue is a robust charging infrastructure and whatever local supply upgrades that entails.
But the good news is we have a bit of time to get that sorted.
All I want out of an ev is for it to cost around 6/7 k when its 5 years old and for it to be usable for another 5/6 years. Im quite happy for a sub 100 mile range and for the top speed to be 80mph.
Im also not bothered about it being speced up other than front elec windows and remote locking.
Be nice if it could tow a camping trailer too.
Im also not bothered about it being speced up other than front elec windows and remote locking.
Be nice if it could tow a camping trailer too.
I have now a vested interest in all of this as I ended up having a bit of an argument with someone called Soupdragon on here about Tesla destroying VW.
The more I invested time into researching Tesla the more i was convinced that Tesla and the Chinese car manufacturers are going to fundamentally change the car market forever by literally killing off the competition.
So i started buying shares in Tesla and Im now sat on a relatively large amount of them and in the process I've turned into a Tesla fanboy.
I honestly just can’t see how companies like Toyota , GM and VW and tbh virtually all other legacy manufacturers will be able to survive. These companies are already so indebted and so far behind in terms of technology and manufacturing production costs that I believe in less than 10 years time you will see some major players fall away. Every time they sell an EV they do so at a huge loss. They can absorb that now due to their ICE sales but look at the vehicles sales of EV’s against ICE now. EV’s are massively taking all the top spots in sold vehicles around the world and In the process the legacy manufacturers sales in ICE vehicles are collapsing. This is happening so much faster than the so called analysts have predicted.
Tesla’s are now cheaper than comparable ICE vehicles, considerably cheaper to run , faster and safer and I do genuinely believe they will solve FSD which if they do will change everything again. And this is before they bring out the considerably cheaper Model 2.
The more I invested time into researching Tesla the more i was convinced that Tesla and the Chinese car manufacturers are going to fundamentally change the car market forever by literally killing off the competition.
So i started buying shares in Tesla and Im now sat on a relatively large amount of them and in the process I've turned into a Tesla fanboy.
I honestly just can’t see how companies like Toyota , GM and VW and tbh virtually all other legacy manufacturers will be able to survive. These companies are already so indebted and so far behind in terms of technology and manufacturing production costs that I believe in less than 10 years time you will see some major players fall away. Every time they sell an EV they do so at a huge loss. They can absorb that now due to their ICE sales but look at the vehicles sales of EV’s against ICE now. EV’s are massively taking all the top spots in sold vehicles around the world and In the process the legacy manufacturers sales in ICE vehicles are collapsing. This is happening so much faster than the so called analysts have predicted.
Tesla’s are now cheaper than comparable ICE vehicles, considerably cheaper to run , faster and safer and I do genuinely believe they will solve FSD which if they do will change everything again. And this is before they bring out the considerably cheaper Model 2.
Edited by Chipper on Sunday 9th July 11:47
A500leroy said:
All I want out of an ev is for it to cost around 6/7 k when its 5 years old and for it to be usable for another 5/6 years. Im quite happy for a sub 100 mile range and for the top speed to be 80mph.
Im also not bothered about it being speced up other than front elec windows and remote locking.
Be nice if it could tow a camping trailer too.
How about this? 5.5 years old, £6750, 125 miles of range and only covered 40k miles so plenty of life in it yet.Im also not bothered about it being speced up other than front elec windows and remote locking.
Be nice if it could tow a camping trailer too.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202307049...
Not sure if it'll tow.
Chipper said:
I have now a vested interest in all of this as I ended up having a bit of an argument with someone called Soupdragon on here about Tesla destroying VW.
The more I invested time into researching Tesla the more i was convinced that Tesla and the Chinese car manufacturers are going to fundamentally change the car market forever by literally killing off the competition.
So i started buying shares in Tesla and Im now sat on a relatively large amount of them and in the process I've turned into a Tesla fanboy.
I honestly just can’t see how companies like Toyota , GM and VW and tbh virtually all other legacy manufacturers will be able to survive. These companies are already so indebted and so far behind in terms of technology and manufacturing production costs that I believe in less than 10 years time you will see some major players fall away. Every time they sell an EV they do so at a huge loss. They can absorb that now due to their ICE sales but look at the vehicles sales of EV’s against ICE now. EV’s are massively taking all the top spots in sold vehicles around the world and In the process the legacy manufacturers sales in ICE vehicles are collapsing. This is happening so much faster than the so called analysts have predicted.
Tesla’s are now cheaper than comparable ICE vehicles, considerably cheaper to run , faster and safer and I do genuinely believe they will solve FSD which if they do will change everything again. And this is before they bring out the considerably cheaper Model 2.
The more I invested time into researching Tesla the more i was convinced that Tesla and the Chinese car manufacturers are going to fundamentally change the car market forever by literally killing off the competition.
So i started buying shares in Tesla and Im now sat on a relatively large amount of them and in the process I've turned into a Tesla fanboy.
I honestly just can’t see how companies like Toyota , GM and VW and tbh virtually all other legacy manufacturers will be able to survive. These companies are already so indebted and so far behind in terms of technology and manufacturing production costs that I believe in less than 10 years time you will see some major players fall away. Every time they sell an EV they do so at a huge loss. They can absorb that now due to their ICE sales but look at the vehicles sales of EV’s against ICE now. EV’s are massively taking all the top spots in sold vehicles around the world and In the process the legacy manufacturers sales in ICE vehicles are collapsing. This is happening so much faster than the so called analysts have predicted.
Tesla’s are now cheaper than comparable ICE vehicles, considerably cheaper to run , faster and safer and I do genuinely believe they will solve FSD which if they do will change everything again. And this is before they bring out the considerably cheaper Model 2.
Edited by Chipper on Sunday 9th July 11:47
Do not underestimate the power of the fossil fuel industry together with the legacy MM to collude in keeping ICEs going with the magical synthetic fuels. To an extent they need each other.
It will depend on where Western governments are strong enough to facilitate the change and face down the pressure from companies and groups who will cite masses of job losses in those old industries.
The $370bn green subsidy in the USA may well help but Europe and the UK are quite a bit behind the curve.
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Sunday 9th July 11:57
Nomme de Plum said:
Do not underestimate the power of the fossil fuel industry together with the legacy MM to collude in keeping ICEs going with the magical synthetic fuels. To an extent they need each other.
It will depend on where Western governments are strong enough to facilitate the change and face down the pressure from companies and groups who will cite masses of job losses in those old industries.
The $370bn green subsidy in the USA may well help but Europe and the UK are quite a bit behind the curve.
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Sunday 9th July 11:57
More trouble with VW's EV efforts (from Autocar):
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-c...
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-c...
Mikehig said:
More trouble with VW's EV efforts (from Autocar):
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-c...
That's actually shocked me. After one false start with the ID range which simply wasn't up to par, they now want to borrow a third party platform as some sort of stop-gap solution..? Guys, just wait until your own (hopefully) good product is ready to go and do it properly this time!!https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-c...
This smacks of a restaurant running out s
t plates of food in a hurry, pissing off their customers and damaging their own reputation. People would rather wait for things to be done properly sometimes...Elsewhere in Germany (and lets be honest, China, these days) just take a look at BMW's upcoming platform: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/bmw-will-launch-a-ne...
BMW have got some really good results so far, despite fairly rapidly developed single use platforms for the IX and separately for the IX3 - and even their multi powertrain platform in the i4 works well enough despite some cross powertrain compromises. People like these cars and they're a fantastic basis and learning exercise in advance of bringing together all they have learned into a single, flexible platform.
I expect the first cars on that platform to be shown early next year as development examples and most likely orders to open up for at least the 3 series towards the end of next year. In the same timeframe VW want to fanny around with a temporary 'fudge it' solution? I predict that vs BMW and Mercedes' upcoming efforts, VW will look like a joke if they really go down the route of buying in a third party platform and trying to bend their cars to fit it. The cars on that temporary platform will also doubtless lose value rapidly the moment they do finally get their proper platform into production.
EDIT: I'm aware this is Audi, not VW, but it's the VAG and obviously the plan should be for a single new VW platform to be shared across the brands. The fact it's not ready and Audi are looking elsewhere is also indicative of inner disagreement between the various brands management.
Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 11th July 11:45
TheDeuce said:
Mikehig said:
More trouble with VW's EV efforts (from Autocar):
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-c...
That's actually shocked me. After one false start with the ID range which simply wasn't up to par, they now want to borrow a third party platform as some sort of stop-gap solution..? Guys, just wait until your own (hopefully) good product is ready to go and do it properly this time!!https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/audi-c...
VAG group’s current woes is similar to IBM / Xerox in the ‘90s as per Steve Job’s book on this issue.
When a company has a monopoly for sometime it ceases to be run by those that make a great product, it’s run by marketing and sales. It doesn’t need to be innovative, it can just roll out some facelifts every now and rely on its brand. It forgets who and what made it a great company in the first place.
Then along comes an innovative company, focused instead on the product, innovation and the customer. In IBM and Xerox’s case it was Apple and for VAG it’s Tesla. Once a customer bought a phone or computer they keep it for a few years, same with cars. Every sale Apple made, was a sale their competitor missed for years. Apple got stronger, and was then able to invest even more in innovation.
The customer makes and breaks a company. If you look at Q1 sales for Tesla vs VAG it’s clear which way the customer is voting. It’s interesting times ahead.
When a company has a monopoly for sometime it ceases to be run by those that make a great product, it’s run by marketing and sales. It doesn’t need to be innovative, it can just roll out some facelifts every now and rely on its brand. It forgets who and what made it a great company in the first place.
Then along comes an innovative company, focused instead on the product, innovation and the customer. In IBM and Xerox’s case it was Apple and for VAG it’s Tesla. Once a customer bought a phone or computer they keep it for a few years, same with cars. Every sale Apple made, was a sale their competitor missed for years. Apple got stronger, and was then able to invest even more in innovation.
The customer makes and breaks a company. If you look at Q1 sales for Tesla vs VAG it’s clear which way the customer is voting. It’s interesting times ahead.
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