Hybrid's - to plug or not to plug
Discussion
Phil. said:
Thanks for the clarification. In which case I suggest full-hybrid is a massive step ahead of plugin hybrid. This is the way forward 
I have a 23 Corolla and it’s the 5th generation of the Toyota hybrid system - they have really developed it well, you just drive it and the car does everything for you to get the best mpg. On the motorway it will even switch into EV mode at 70mph under the right conditions.
There is an EV mode button, but that’s normally just used for moving the car on the driveway without the engine starting.
Otherwise you just drive it. They have programmed it so the petrol engine doesn’t rev as much as previous generations and performance is much improved with a 9 second 0-60 instead of 11 previously.
Long term average for mainly motorway miles is 60mpg now, off the motorway 60-70mpg is easily done.
I had a Honda series hybrid which in theory should be good, but the battery pack can’t provide full power to the electric motor so there is a longer delay while it starts up and revs to maximum to give you power. In the Toyota it’s a much more relaxing system where it starts and blends power through the ‘gearbox’.
My XC40 plug-in works very well for my usage - mostly 20 miles or less each day, done purely on the battery at around 3.5p per mile. Obviously only possible if plugged in each time.
50 mile round trip is 50:50 battery to petrol, around 80mpg.
I filled up the tank a few months ago, and have driven almost 1300 miles.
Volvo app says my running total since buying the car is 178mpg.
A full BEV would suit me perfectly, and would be cheaper to run. However, when I bought the car secondhand, the BEV versions were at least £5k more, and I'd never save the difference. Much closer in price now.
A mild hybrid version would've been cheaper to buy, but they are down on power a fair bit.
PHEV made the most sense for me, but only really "works" if charged after each journey - no hassle, using the supplied granny charger.
50 mile round trip is 50:50 battery to petrol, around 80mpg.
I filled up the tank a few months ago, and have driven almost 1300 miles.
Volvo app says my running total since buying the car is 178mpg.
A full BEV would suit me perfectly, and would be cheaper to run. However, when I bought the car secondhand, the BEV versions were at least £5k more, and I'd never save the difference. Much closer in price now.
A mild hybrid version would've been cheaper to buy, but they are down on power a fair bit.
PHEV made the most sense for me, but only really "works" if charged after each journey - no hassle, using the supplied granny charger.
Whataguy said:
Phil. said:
Thanks for the clarification. In which case I suggest full-hybrid is a massive step ahead of plugin hybrid. This is the way forward
I have a 23 Corolla and it’s the 5th generation of the Toyota hybrid system - they have really developed it well, you just drive it and the car does everything for you to get the best mpg. On the motorway it will even switch into EV mode at 70mph under the right conditions.
There is an EV mode button, but that’s normally just used for moving the car on the driveway without the engine starting.
Otherwise you just drive it. They have programmed it so the petrol engine doesn’t rev as much as previous generations and performance is much improved with a 9 second 0-60 instead of 11 previously.
Long term average for mainly motorway miles is 60mpg now, off the motorway 60-70mpg is easily done.
I had a Honda series hybrid which in theory should be good, but the battery pack can’t provide full power to the electric motor so there is a longer delay while it starts up and revs to maximum to give you power. In the Toyota it’s a much more relaxing system where it starts and blends power through the ‘gearbox’.
I believe Toyota have stated that they are not going down the rabbit hole of EV’s like every other manufacturer and are focussing on full-hybrid technology. From what I have seen they are advanced in doing this. I’d definitely buy a full-hybrid Toyota in the future.
RizzoTheRat said:
The term "mild hybrid" covers a massive range, I had a mild hybrid Panda as a hire car some time back and apparently it's battery is 0.1kWh, which is smaller than the battery in my motorbike!
It really annoys me that manufacturers can claim 'we sell a hybrid' when it can't drive on electric at all, its more like glorified stop start+. But if you search for Hybrid engines on Autotrader they all come up.See Ford with the Fiesta/Focus/Kuga (bar the PHEV) etc mild hybrids compared to anything from Toyota.
I've just ordered a C-HR PHEV so I'll see how I get on, my commute is 15 miles each way so in theory doable on the 40 mile range.
On my third PHEV, 2 x 225xe, and now a NX with 45/50 mile range. About 200k in the last seven years. Works well with my user case. Plug in to a 3 pin socket outside the garage. Enough range for commuting to work or school run. Similar to a full ev in that you can pre heat or pre cool the car via a timer or an app. And if you want to go skiing, throw the kids and the skis into the car and drive across Europe. All have been fast in a straight line. Economy is very good, if you plug in, so so if you don’t. Recent 500 mile trip in the NX, about 47mpg. No issues with reliability. Downsides, they are heavy, if you use all the performance the mpg plummets. Both BMWs had small petrol tanks, and reduced boot space compared to internal combustion versions. The NX has a 55 litre tank, and normal boot. On all of them you have been able to select the traction mode to use, or leave it to sort itself out. All have had 4x4 capability using an electric motor at the rear. Works surprisingly well. Seriously looked at an I4 full electric, but PHEV still suits me well, and each new one I get has a much bigger ev range than the previous one.
One key thing to consider with PHEVs is that some of them won't run on EV if you're requesting heat on the climate control.
My in-laws have a Hyundai Santa-Fe PHEV - in winter they need to run on petrol to get any heat in the thing. I'd guess Kia products will be similar.
Conversely, my Peugeot 3008 PHEV (and many other models) can produce heat in EV mode. So worth doing some research on that first as it effectively negates the running cost savings during winter.
For what it's worth, the Peugeot has a 13kWh battery and in mild weather will do 26-34 miles in EV mode depending how I drive it. Once that runs out, the engine will kick in.
On longer journeys, set the in-car sat nav and it'll manage the battery to last the duration. I did 180 miles recently and averaged 53mpg plus a full battery at about £1 on my overnight rate - so equivalent cost of about 50mpg.
My in-laws have a Hyundai Santa-Fe PHEV - in winter they need to run on petrol to get any heat in the thing. I'd guess Kia products will be similar.
Conversely, my Peugeot 3008 PHEV (and many other models) can produce heat in EV mode. So worth doing some research on that first as it effectively negates the running cost savings during winter.
For what it's worth, the Peugeot has a 13kWh battery and in mild weather will do 26-34 miles in EV mode depending how I drive it. Once that runs out, the engine will kick in.
On longer journeys, set the in-car sat nav and it'll manage the battery to last the duration. I did 180 miles recently and averaged 53mpg plus a full battery at about £1 on my overnight rate - so equivalent cost of about 50mpg.
FBR2020 said:
One key thing to consider with PHEVs is that some of them won't run on EV if you're requesting heat on the climate control.
It’s also the same for Toyota hybrids, in the winter they get 5mpg less as the petrol engine provides heat. In the summer the air con is electric so runs fine when in EV mode.
My 5th generation also has remote cooling and heating with the Toyota app. But the petrol engine has to run as it’s more of a remote start system. The car is still locked and immobilised, but you can only use it off road/on a driveway.
Ankh87 said:
Partner wants a new car in the new year but is really against the idea of EV. Tried my best to convince her but not happening. So she is wanting a hybrid. Now there's plenty of choices out there of all sorts so finding something she likes isn't difficult. It'll have the benefits obviously of just get up and go in the times she needs.
I'm wanting to know the benefits of the plug-in over the other type of hybrid (no plug). Does anyone really run these apart from taxi drivers? Do the batteries actually last? How does the battery work with both these or is it model specific? I'm at a total loss with hybrids.
Point out to her the advantages and disadvantages of the different systems to her and then leave it, because it will be your fault - whatever it is.I'm wanting to know the benefits of the plug-in over the other type of hybrid (no plug). Does anyone really run these apart from taxi drivers? Do the batteries actually last? How does the battery work with both these or is it model specific? I'm at a total loss with hybrids.
We have a 'self-charging' Toyota Yaris, drive it all the time in 'Eco' mode, or whatever it is called. Leave it alone, let the car do the thinking.
The 12v battery is smaller on these hybrids, so, of course, it takes less to run it down. Any time she is going to be sitting in the car - not driving - stress the importance of leaving the engine running - even if the engine isn't running, if you see what I mean!
Whataguy said:
FBR2020 said:
One key thing to consider with PHEVs is that some of them won't run on EV if you're requesting heat on the climate control.
It’s also the same for Toyota hybrids, in the winter they get 5mpg less as the petrol engine provides heat. In the summer the air con is electric so runs fine when in EV mode.
My 5th generation also has remote cooling and heating with the Toyota app. But the petrol engine has to run as it’s more of a remote start system. The car is still locked and immobilised, but you can only use it off road/on a driveway.
blank said:
Whataguy said:
FBR2020 said:
One key thing to consider with PHEVs is that some of them won't run on EV if you're requesting heat on the climate control.
It’s also the same for Toyota hybrids, in the winter they get 5mpg less as the petrol engine provides heat. In the summer the air con is electric so runs fine when in EV mode.
My 5th generation also has remote cooling and heating with the Toyota app. But the petrol engine has to run as it’s more of a remote start system. The car is still locked and immobilised, but you can only use it off road/on a driveway.
Buy the car she wants and just run it. Don't over think things.
Why does she want a hybrid OP, what is her actual reasoning?
I sell new cars and frequently come across people who "want a hybrid" when it comes down to it they want a hybrid as they think they will be wafting around in electric mode all the time thus saving money on fuel but have the backup of an ICE for long distances, they think it's the unicorn that they have been waiting for.
Many don't want a PHEV as they can't easily plug it in plus the extra cost of a PHEV over a HEV tends to be prohibitive, when we offered a PHEV it was only available on a mid SUV at approx £4500 more in cost than the equivalent HEV, £4500 buys a hell of alot of petrol.
This then leaves the only option being a HEV (or full hybrid):
"what do mean it only does about a mile and a half on electric, that's a bit rubbish?!".
"well, it's only a small battery which self charges with the engine acting as a kind of generator, you braking and the car coasting, it's more of an assist which gives diesel levels of overall fuel economy but in a petrol automatic, up to 80% of your local driving is in electric, however it does depend on how much charge is initially in the battery, driving style and type and ambient temperature, it doesn't just power the car in electric all of the time"
"oh Ahh, thank you for explaining it to me!"
Many people seem to think it is this magical electrically powered car where the electric is there all of the time with the back up of a petrol engine "just incase" but they don't actually think "Mmm I wonder how it actually does that, it sounds to good to be true", or they think the self charging element of the system is far, far greater than it actually is, giving many, many miles of pure electric driving.
I sell new cars and frequently come across people who "want a hybrid" when it comes down to it they want a hybrid as they think they will be wafting around in electric mode all the time thus saving money on fuel but have the backup of an ICE for long distances, they think it's the unicorn that they have been waiting for.
Many don't want a PHEV as they can't easily plug it in plus the extra cost of a PHEV over a HEV tends to be prohibitive, when we offered a PHEV it was only available on a mid SUV at approx £4500 more in cost than the equivalent HEV, £4500 buys a hell of alot of petrol.
This then leaves the only option being a HEV (or full hybrid):
"what do mean it only does about a mile and a half on electric, that's a bit rubbish?!".
"well, it's only a small battery which self charges with the engine acting as a kind of generator, you braking and the car coasting, it's more of an assist which gives diesel levels of overall fuel economy but in a petrol automatic, up to 80% of your local driving is in electric, however it does depend on how much charge is initially in the battery, driving style and type and ambient temperature, it doesn't just power the car in electric all of the time"
"oh Ahh, thank you for explaining it to me!"
Many people seem to think it is this magical electrically powered car where the electric is there all of the time with the back up of a petrol engine "just incase" but they don't actually think "Mmm I wonder how it actually does that, it sounds to good to be true", or they think the self charging element of the system is far, far greater than it actually is, giving many, many miles of pure electric driving.
I had a RAV4 hybrid and now have the PHEV version.
I was planning on buying a full electric. But when we looked at my usage and cost of a Tesla M3 Highlander. A used PHEV made a great saving.
In the summer I’m getting 55 miles on electric only. I got a Zappi charge point installed that during the day will top the car up via my solar and if needed cheap rate at night. My daily trips are rarely more that 30 miles. We recently did a holiday in Yorkshire and this was the first time I needed to put petrol in the car for 6 weeks.
The car is fast of the line and hits 0-60 in 6 seconds. It feels faster. Loads of space for the dog and all the stuff we need to fit in when going on holiday.
Prior to moving over to the RAV4’s I had a BMW M235 and thought I would miss it. I don’t!
My wife’s next car will be full electric as a small electric car is perfect for her and her needs. But the RAV4 PHEV is a very good car for my usage.
I was planning on buying a full electric. But when we looked at my usage and cost of a Tesla M3 Highlander. A used PHEV made a great saving.
In the summer I’m getting 55 miles on electric only. I got a Zappi charge point installed that during the day will top the car up via my solar and if needed cheap rate at night. My daily trips are rarely more that 30 miles. We recently did a holiday in Yorkshire and this was the first time I needed to put petrol in the car for 6 weeks.
The car is fast of the line and hits 0-60 in 6 seconds. It feels faster. Loads of space for the dog and all the stuff we need to fit in when going on holiday.
Prior to moving over to the RAV4’s I had a BMW M235 and thought I would miss it. I don’t!
My wife’s next car will be full electric as a small electric car is perfect for her and her needs. But the RAV4 PHEV is a very good car for my usage.
MrBig said:
caziques said:
My personal view is that PHEVs are in fact the worst of both worlds.
Mrs Caziques wasn't that impressed when I bought her an early Leaf (ex Japan, imported to NZ). She could never get over the range anxiety (70 miles at best) - loved the low running costs and zero maintenance.
We bought a 50kW MGZSEV about eighteen months ago, 200 mile range - range anxiety gone.
Mrs Caziques use the MG, I use an eNV200, son uses Leaf, daughter has an Ioniq in Oz (and electric scooter). Other son is using the MG whilst Mrs C and I tour Europe - i suspect he may purchase something like an MG4 to replace his Golf GTi.
A PHEV is like an expensive comfort blanket for a lot of people - and the petrol consumption tends to to be high.
Have you owned one and had actual experience?Mrs Caziques wasn't that impressed when I bought her an early Leaf (ex Japan, imported to NZ). She could never get over the range anxiety (70 miles at best) - loved the low running costs and zero maintenance.
We bought a 50kW MGZSEV about eighteen months ago, 200 mile range - range anxiety gone.
Mrs Caziques use the MG, I use an eNV200, son uses Leaf, daughter has an Ioniq in Oz (and electric scooter). Other son is using the MG whilst Mrs C and I tour Europe - i suspect he may purchase something like an MG4 to replace his Golf GTi.
A PHEV is like an expensive comfort blanket for a lot of people - and the petrol consumption tends to to be high.
OP, a PHEV can work very well if your usage profile fits. You just need to make sure it does. I had a Golf GTE PHEV for 100k miles over 4 years and loved it. It only went because I changed jobs and WFH full time now. Local trips on the school run, shopping, gym, pub etc on EV then run it in hybrid mode for longer trips.
I ran a GTE for two years and in my experience it was the best of both worlds. With a fully charged battery, 70-90 mpg was possible, once discharged about 50 on a run. Shorter trips could be done on electric only. As you'd imagine range was excellent with such good economy.
At the current moment she really doesn't want an EV. Yes it would fit with her mileage but it's more the issue of the faff of charging and if she got a bigger car, we'd more than likely use that for long trips, than use mine.
Another issue with going fully EV would be the fact she works from home during the day, so going on an EV tariff might actually cost us more money.
I've tried to explain that EV would be fine but we all know if she hated the EV, then it would be my fault and never hear the end of it. So get what she wants which a hybrid would be perfectly fine. EV mode would be brilliant for running around the village, basically zero running costs. Then when needed we can use her car, fill up with petrol and go to the coast without a worry to charge up.
Another issue with going fully EV would be the fact she works from home during the day, so going on an EV tariff might actually cost us more money.
I've tried to explain that EV would be fine but we all know if she hated the EV, then it would be my fault and never hear the end of it. So get what she wants which a hybrid would be perfectly fine. EV mode would be brilliant for running around the village, basically zero running costs. Then when needed we can use her car, fill up with petrol and go to the coast without a worry to charge up.
Ankh87 said:
At the current moment she really doesn't want an EV. Yes it would fit with her mileage but it's more the issue of the faff of charging and if she got a bigger car, we'd more than likely use that for long trips, than use mine.
Another issue with going fully EV would be the fact she works from home during the day, so going on an EV tariff might actually cost us more money.
I've tried to explain that EV would be fine but we all know if she hated the EV, then it would be my fault and never hear the end of it. So get what she wants which a hybrid would be perfectly fine. EV mode would be brilliant for running around the village, basically zero running costs. Then when needed we can use her car, fill up with petrol and go to the coast without a worry to charge up.
Charging faff... You literally put a plug in a socket once a week. It sounds like a plug in hybrid makes the most sense given the minimal trip length, it'll be cheaper than a full EV and still do all it's miles on electric range.Another issue with going fully EV would be the fact she works from home during the day, so going on an EV tariff might actually cost us more money.
I've tried to explain that EV would be fine but we all know if she hated the EV, then it would be my fault and never hear the end of it. So get what she wants which a hybrid would be perfectly fine. EV mode would be brilliant for running around the village, basically zero running costs. Then when needed we can use her car, fill up with petrol and go to the coast without a worry to charge up.
The EV tariff thing is also hard to understand. Working from home adds minimal extra to typical home usage, probably less than 1kwh per day. But charging a decent range PHEV will take more like 30kwh a week, so you want that usage in the cheap hours. You can also move dishwasher, washing machine etc into the cheap hours.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff