Solid State batteries to replace Li-Ion storage ?
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
You think because something exists elsewhere, that predated us by billions of years, that we can replicate it at home for our convenience...?
You invest in nuclear fusion, I'll invest in new battery technology. Whoever is right will get their prize
Not at all. You invest in nuclear fusion, I'll invest in new battery technology. Whoever is right will get their prize
But I don’t think it’s magic that defies our understanding of physics. It’s an engineering problem that requires a metric ton of work (and probably advances in materials).
I’d suggest commercial fusion is an order of magnitude more difficult than a better battery.
Frimley111R said:
I'm pretty sure i read very recently that Nissan or Toyota are building a factory right now to produce them.
Happy to dismantle the latest BS tall story from the Japanese auto manufactures - but can you provide a source as a starting point?I can more or less guarantee that it'll basically be a factory they need anyway, with the potential to be used to manufacture solid state batteries, to keep the shareholders happy... If you can't prove the battery itself to the world, the next most convincing thing you can do is to build a facility to produce them. Or at least sell it that way.
Mr E said:
TheDeuce said:
You think because something exists elsewhere, that predated us by billions of years, that we can replicate it at home for our convenience...?
You invest in nuclear fusion, I'll invest in new battery technology. Whoever is right will get their prize
Not at all. You invest in nuclear fusion, I'll invest in new battery technology. Whoever is right will get their prize
But I don’t think it’s magic that defies our understanding of physics. It’s an engineering problem that requires a metric ton of work (and probably advances in materials).
I’d suggest commercial fusion is an order of magnitude more difficult than a better battery.
And with good enough batteries, it's likely that further research into fusion will be devalued - at least for our lifetime. The reality is we can already relatively easily harvest enough 'free' energy for everyone, it's just storage that we're lacking. We really, really, need better batteries.
TheDeuce said:
jfdi said:
When they do arrive you'll be able to charge them with the limitless free electricity from the nuclear fusion power station.
Sustained nuclear fusion is next to impossible with our current technology, or even our present comprehension of physics.Stackable, useable, solid state cells already exist and are frequently demonstrated. It's just a question of reliable and affordable mass production.
Gary C said:
TheDeuce said:
jfdi said:
When they do arrive you'll be able to charge them with the limitless free electricity from the nuclear fusion power station.
Sustained nuclear fusion is next to impossible with our current technology, or even our present comprehension of physics.Stackable, useable, solid state cells already exist and are frequently demonstrated. It's just a question of reliable and affordable mass production.
dvs_dave said:
I think we’re still missing something with our understanding, otherwise we’d be closer than we are. It wouldn’t surprise me if there is some quantum level secret sauce that we’re still missing, but will discover eventually, and that’ll be the breakthrough.
The fusion bit it well understoodContainment and control of the plasma is a different matter
Gary C said:
dvs_dave said:
I think we’re still missing something with our understanding, otherwise we’d be closer than we are. It wouldn’t surprise me if there is some quantum level secret sauce that we’re still missing, but will discover eventually, and that’ll be the breakthrough.
The fusion bit it well understoodContainment and control of the plasma is a different matter
It's easy to crudely force fusion to occur with our current technology. But we can't master anything so complex as arranging fusion in a useable way because a significant part of the physical world is dictated by the quantum realm, which we haven't even learned to comfortably think about, let alone fully make sense of or influence.
We're not designed to even consider a dimension we can't detect, we don't even know if quantum is the extent of what we can't witness or understand...
Batteries are probably simpler for now
ChrisW. said:
I was recently discussing Li-Ion limitations with a car sales person.
It was suggested that Solid State options are coming with practical ranges up to 900 miles and with potential availability in the market from 2027 ...
Can anybody add any fact to this idea ??
As we say in the electrical industry, 'potential' is no power without 'current'.It was suggested that Solid State options are coming with practical ranges up to 900 miles and with potential availability in the market from 2027 ...
Can anybody add any fact to this idea ??
If a new battery was available in a commercially viable design, it would take at least a ouple of years to ramp up production and get factories sorted to produce in quantity and down to a useful price. Then you'd have to design, develop and type approve the car around it.
Because the solid state battery should have great advantages, it would initially command a high price to recoup the development money.
I don't think 'technology around the corner' should worry someone looking to buy a new car to keep for say 3 to 5 years.
It perhaps should worry politicians and investors thinking about operations like 'BritishVolt'.
Several research places like Harvard SEAS are reporting a lot of success at lab level.
It would be ambitious to expect prototype cars in a couple of years, some penetration of the premium car market in 4 years? then gradually taking aover all new models?
A Li-ion battery pack for a car is down to £120 or so per kWh now.
It's probably under half of the works cost of a car?
So new battery tech can only have limited impact.
Advantages of faster charging could be good, but perhaps limited by infrastructure when it comes to private cars.
There are other markets in trucks, trains and even planes, which will mean the price will initially stay high?
As far as I know, the solid state batteries being worked on for the Automotive industry are Lithium Ion batteries so the thread title makes no real sense anyway.
They will happen, but as above they will almost certianly exist in products where weight is more more important such as phones and laptops a generation before cars.
They will happen, but as above they will almost certianly exist in products where weight is more more important such as phones and laptops a generation before cars.
Edited by kambites on Monday 17th June 07:28
We need to improve energy storage. Battery tech is evolving slowly and we need a major breakthrough. Maybe solid state will be sorted out and widespread in 10 years.
Fusion, applied at scale probably not in my lifetime. It may not even be ever done. I read somewhere that it works well in the sun because of the use gravitational forces that control and make the reaction sustainable. To achieve that on Earth requires huge amounts of energy to start and maintain that it becomes unviable.
If we can’t produce more we need to either use less of store every excess better.
Not looking pretty when as a race we still fight each other for futile reasons or egos. We will eventually self destruct probably within 500 years. Nothing to worry really.
Fusion, applied at scale probably not in my lifetime. It may not even be ever done. I read somewhere that it works well in the sun because of the use gravitational forces that control and make the reaction sustainable. To achieve that on Earth requires huge amounts of energy to start and maintain that it becomes unviable.
If we can’t produce more we need to either use less of store every excess better.
Not looking pretty when as a race we still fight each other for futile reasons or egos. We will eventually self destruct probably within 500 years. Nothing to worry really.
TheDeuce said:
We agree then
And with good enough batteries, it's likely that further research into fusion will be devalued - at least for our lifetime. The reality is we can already relatively easily harvest enough 'free' energy for everyone, it's just storage that we're lacking. We really, really, need better batteries.
A few square miles of solar panels placed in the Sahara dessert would provide enough electricity for the whole world. And with good enough batteries, it's likely that further research into fusion will be devalued - at least for our lifetime. The reality is we can already relatively easily harvest enough 'free' energy for everyone, it's just storage that we're lacking. We really, really, need better batteries.
Distribution might be an issue but it gives you an idea of how little we need relative to the amount available.
dvs_dave said:
Gary C said:
TheDeuce said:
jfdi said:
When they do arrive you'll be able to charge them with the limitless free electricity from the nuclear fusion power station.
Sustained nuclear fusion is next to impossible with our current technology, or even our present comprehension of physics.Stackable, useable, solid state cells already exist and are frequently demonstrated. It's just a question of reliable and affordable mass production.
OutInTheShed said:
A Li-ion battery pack for a car is down to £120 or so per kWh now.
It's probably under half of the works cost of a car?
So new battery tech can only have limited impact.
Advantages of faster charging could be good, but perhaps limited by infrastructure when it comes to private cars.
There are other markets in trucks, trains and even planes, which will mean the price will initially stay high?
I think current prices are around $120/kWh, which is an extraordinary drop since even 2016 ($400/kWh), and consensus seems to suggest that by 2028 prices could be around $70/kWh.It's probably under half of the works cost of a car?
So new battery tech can only have limited impact.
Advantages of faster charging could be good, but perhaps limited by infrastructure when it comes to private cars.
There are other markets in trucks, trains and even planes, which will mean the price will initially stay high?
So while solid state should improve on almost every aspect of the current products to an extent, the cost barrier will slow adoption rates I expect, certainly in automotive applications. We might see a repeat of the introduction of EVs, with solid state appearing in the high-end "halo" models at first, and taking years to start to trickle down. Maybe we'll see them in smaller consumer goods a lot more first?
ChocolateFrog said:
A few square miles of solar panels placed in the Sahara dessert would provide enough electricity for the whole world.
Distribution might be an issue but it gives you an idea of how little we need relative to the amount available.
I think it's rather more than a few square miles for the whole world.Distribution might be an issue but it gives you an idea of how little we need relative to the amount available.
To power the USA needs a single solar farm about 110km by 110km, which is actually stupidly small compared to the land mass of the USA.
Even the UK would need something like 40km by 40km of panels to theoretically cover all our electrical needs.
ChocolateFrog said:
Not really, it's just a very expensive engineering challenge. The Physics is basic.
Yup. Please smash these lightweight atoms together hard enough to overcome the strong nuclear force. The sun does it by gravity. You can’t. So, it’ll have to be mega high kinetic energy. Like 100 million kelvin.
Please then control the plasma at that absurd temperature, work out how to extract useful “work” from it to generate electricity. Oh, and by the way all the materials you use will be hammered by a constant stream of high energy protons that’ll do “interesting” things.
Good luck!
Knock_knock said:
ChocolateFrog said:
A few square miles of solar panels placed in the Sahara dessert would provide enough electricity for the whole world.
Distribution might be an issue but it gives you an idea of how little we need relative to the amount available.
I think it's rather more than a few square miles for the whole world.Distribution might be an issue but it gives you an idea of how little we need relative to the amount available.
To power the USA needs a single solar farm about 110km by 110km, which is actually stupidly small compared to the land mass of the USA.
Even the UK would need something like 40km by 40km of panels to theoretically cover all our electrical needs.
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