Discussion
TheDeuce said:
The source I linked to is miles, as are the stats I found for ICE car retirement mileage.
Standard car like for EU carbon studies is 200,000 km or 125,000 miles.I believe we conform to that or possible slightly under.
This chap produced a chart a couple of years ago showing final mileage distributions for UK cars using MOT data: https://autopredict.co.uk/blog/posts/most-miles.ht...
This is the distribution chart he posted, I think the units on the vertical axis are fractional, i.e. 0.01 = 1%.
GT9 said:
TheDeuce said:
The source I linked to is miles, as are the stats I found for ICE car retirement mileage.
Standard car like for EU carbon studies is 200,000 km or 125,000 miles.I believe we conform to that or possible slightly under.
This chap produced a chart a couple of years ago showing final mileage distributions for UK cars using MOT data: https://autopredict.co.uk/blog/posts/most-miles.ht...
This is the distribution chart he posted, I think the units on the vertical axis are fractional, i.e. 0.01 = 1%.
It only reinforces that battery degredation won't become a factor until an EV has covered far higher mileage than we expect from ICE cars.
740EVTORQUES said:
98.8% state of health. So for the battery to reach 70% state of health (at which point it would still be very useable) the car would need to cover around 500,000 miles.
I wonder what the residual value of a car with 500,000 miles and a 70% battery would be? ]
1500 cycles puts the batteries in a Tesla around 500,000 miles. I'd be more than happy with 150,000 mile life.I wonder what the residual value of a car with 500,000 miles and a 70% battery would be? ]
I am fast coming to the conclusion that my 3LR is going to be a car for life as it's tanked in value. Nothing wrong with mine, but I was half tempted to get the latest Highland version - but second hand values mean too much cash required for a negligible upgrade.
Pretty much the same with a Range Rover I bought new - it lost over 90% of it's original value when I sold it.
TheDeuce said:
Thanks - my googled source was obviously talking BS!
It only reinforces that battery degredation won't become a factor until an EV has covered far higher mileage than we expect from ICE cars.
The chart is possibly erroneous in that it wont capture cars that have been clocked, SORN, untaxed, etc.It only reinforces that battery degredation won't become a factor until an EV has covered far higher mileage than we expect from ICE cars.
Anyway, 200,000 km is about the best basis we can use for UK/EU cars.
Sanity checking 16 years at 7500 miles p.a. gives 120,000.
Gone fishing said:
TheDeuce said:
For reference current UK stats for scrapped cars is around 200k miles and 16 years age. I doubt many EV's will be scrapped due to battery deg in the same timeframe/mileage bracket.
EVs may not get scrapped because of batteries, but not all ICE have been scrapped because of the engine. Electrical issues, subframes, significant brake issues, well any repair that is deemed uneconomical. With all the computer stuff going on in EVs I can see people scrapping a EV because the BMS or Big screen throws a wobbly and it’s big money to fix. Water ingress into early Teslas battery fuse area is a problem at the moment and if not addressed can nuke the battery. - DPF issues
- Fuel contamination
- Injector failures
- Intermittent drops in the idle rpm
- Gearbox whine on the 5th gear
- Turbo showing signs of age
If I were looking for a second car as a city roundabout, I'd sleep better with e.g. a used 12,000€ e-Golf parked outside than with any of the combustion-engined options in the same price range.
cliffords said:
I have looked at a few Toyota Prius, they are very cheap.
I have found out why the batteries have really gone bad. Many showing range of 60 miles
Was this different battlery technology.
If I understood correctly, Priuses (Priusi? I have found out why the batteries have really gone bad. Many showing range of 60 miles
Was this different battlery technology.
) have either tiny batteries for the non-plugin versions (around 1kWh) or small ones (8.8kWh) for the plugin one. 60miles electric range sounds about right for an optimistic estimate with a good battery.I read that the batteries were NiMH (non-plugin) up until 2016; afterwards, they switched mostly to lithium, although the 2021 model (and later?) apparently uses both(!).
740EVTORQUES said:
Rechecked my KIA EV6 GT battery after 18 months and 20,000 miles (normally charged to 80% but freely charged to 100% for long journeys and topped up with fast DC charging)
Bearing in mind that degradation is normally faster in the first year than the subsequent years and stabilises until the battery is much more worn.
98.8% state of health. So for the battery to reach 70% state of health (at which point it would still be very useable) the car would need to cover around 500,000 miles.
Probably more. Bearing in mind that degradation is normally faster in the first year than the subsequent years and stabilises until the battery is much more worn.
98.8% state of health. So for the battery to reach 70% state of health (at which point it would still be very useable) the car would need to cover around 500,000 miles.
I saw this FB post this morning and -if it is correct- once stabilized then it will really take forever to drop to 70%:
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10281599891083...
cliffords said:
I have looked at a few Toyota Prius, they are very cheap.
I have found out why the batteries have really gone bad. Many showing range of 60 miles
Was this different battlery technology.
I have found out why the batteries have really gone bad. Many showing range of 60 miles
Was this different battlery technology.
I don't think any Prius has ever had a range of anywhere near 60 miles on battery power from new? ETA: Oh it looks like the latest plug-in version (which was only released about a year ago) has an official electric only range of 53.4 miles, so not that far below 60 miles. Still if someone will sell you a cheap used Prius with a battery range of 60 miles, bite their arm off!
Edited by kambites on Friday 14th June 15:50
What this also suggests is that here is likely to be real merit in repurposing functional batteries as grid storage farms once the traditional car bits of EVs have reached end of life.
For a static battery, 70% functionality is fine as the charge density is unimportant. Obviously they will eventually reach a stage where they simply don’t work but that’s likely to be much further down the line, and their second life with constant low rates of charge is likely to be gentler too than when used in a car.
Maybe this will be the fate of used batteries rather than recycling?
For a static battery, 70% functionality is fine as the charge density is unimportant. Obviously they will eventually reach a stage where they simply don’t work but that’s likely to be much further down the line, and their second life with constant low rates of charge is likely to be gentler too than when used in a car.
Maybe this will be the fate of used batteries rather than recycling?
740EVTORQUES said:
What this also suggests is that here is likely to be real merit in repurposing functional batteries as grid storage farms once the traditional car bits of EVs have reached end of life.
For a static battery, 70% functionality is fine as the charge density is unimportant. Obviously they will eventually reach a stage where they simply don’t work but that’s likely to be much further down the line, and their second life with constant low rates of charge is likely to be gentler too than when used in a car.
Maybe this will be the fate of used batteries rather than recycling?
Possibly, but to use in a battery storage setup you're stripping down to cell level typically, testing and rebuilding. That's quite labour intensive. If the cells are potted or bonded then that impossible. For a static battery, 70% functionality is fine as the charge density is unimportant. Obviously they will eventually reach a stage where they simply don’t work but that’s likely to be much further down the line, and their second life with constant low rates of charge is likely to be gentler too than when used in a car.
Maybe this will be the fate of used batteries rather than recycling?
It's entirely possible to repurpose at a module level, even a pack level, but the risk (safety and longevity) is greater. I guess LFP I'd personally have as a domestic, but not others.
kambites said:
740EVTORQUES said:
Maybe this will be the fate of used batteries rather than recycling?
I guess the recycle vs reuse thing will come down to economies - demand for grid storage compared to the demand for raw materials for new car batteries. I imagine therefore that a significant proportion of somewhat degraded old car batteries will be re-packaged as home batteries. A decent EV battery is ~70-100kwh, most homes can run an entire day on less than 10kwh so it wouldn't take very long in an all EV world of cars for the home battery market to be fully supplied, and then most of the batteries would become more valuable if recycled to make new batteries.
Re-use taking priority over re-manufacturing initially would make sense.
TheDeuce said:
Long term the government and grid would absolutely love everyone to have an EV and also a household battery, it would massively increase the quantity of renewable power we could exploit and also stabilise the grid like never before.
I imagine therefore that a significant proportion of somewhat degraded old car batteries will be re-packaged as home batteries. A decent EV battery is ~70-100kwh, most homes can run an entire day on less than 10kwh so it wouldn't take very long in an all EV world of cars for the home battery market to be fully supplied, and then most of the batteries would become more valuable if recycled to make new batteries.
Re-use taking priority over re-manufacturing initially would make sense.
V2G on type2/CCS would be a great help too.I imagine therefore that a significant proportion of somewhat degraded old car batteries will be re-packaged as home batteries. A decent EV battery is ~70-100kwh, most homes can run an entire day on less than 10kwh so it wouldn't take very long in an all EV world of cars for the home battery market to be fully supplied, and then most of the batteries would become more valuable if recycled to make new batteries.
Re-use taking priority over re-manufacturing initially would make sense.
Evanivitch said:
TheDeuce said:
Long term the government and grid would absolutely love everyone to have an EV and also a household battery, it would massively increase the quantity of renewable power we could exploit and also stabilise the grid like never before.
I imagine therefore that a significant proportion of somewhat degraded old car batteries will be re-packaged as home batteries. A decent EV battery is ~70-100kwh, most homes can run an entire day on less than 10kwh so it wouldn't take very long in an all EV world of cars for the home battery market to be fully supplied, and then most of the batteries would become more valuable if recycled to make new batteries.
Re-use taking priority over re-manufacturing initially would make sense.
V2G on type2/CCS would be a great help too.I imagine therefore that a significant proportion of somewhat degraded old car batteries will be re-packaged as home batteries. A decent EV battery is ~70-100kwh, most homes can run an entire day on less than 10kwh so it wouldn't take very long in an all EV world of cars for the home battery market to be fully supplied, and then most of the batteries would become more valuable if recycled to make new batteries.
Re-use taking priority over re-manufacturing initially would make sense.
But if V2G can be got working as standard with very low equipment cost, it's obviously the best, most flexible solution - in an ideal world.
CheesecakeRunner said:
Confidence is a preference for the habitual short charge,
Of what is known as (Battery Life!)
And morning plug-ins can be avoided if you take a short commute,
In your little e-car (Battery Life!)
Battery Life!
I charge up in the carport,
Despite the neighbors laughing at my extension cord,
But it gives me a sense of enormous well-being (Battery Life!)
And I’m happy for the rest of the day,
Safe in the knowledge I’m saving on gas (saving on gas).
All the people, so many people,
They all go hand-in-hand, hand-in-hand through their (Battery Life!)
I get up when I want except on charging day when I get rudely awakened by the beep of my Tesla (Battery Life!)
I put my shoes on, have a cup of tea and I think about leaving the house (Battery Life!)
I feed the charger, I sometimes feed the squirrel too,
It gives me a sense of enormous well-being (Battery Life!)
And then I’m happy for the rest of the day,
Safe in the knowledge I’m saving on gas (saving on gas).
All the people, so many people,
They all go hand-in-hand, hand-in-hand through their (Battery Life!)
Battery Life! (Battery Life!)
Battery Life! (Battery Life!)
It's got nothing to do with range anxiety or exploding batteries, you know,
(Battery Life!)
And it’s not about your uncle who swears that they just catch on fire and go 'boom'!
I hear it costs a fortune to replace the battery when it dies,
But that's a myth, mate (Battery Life!)
And what about the fact that there's not enough charging points around?
Another false tale (Battery Life!)
Battery Life!
I chuckle at the myths,
As I drive past the gas station lines,
And it gives me a sense of enormous well-being (Battery Life!)
And I'm happy for the rest of the day,
Safe in the knowledge I'm saving on gas (saving on gas).
All the people, so many people,
They all go hand-in-hand, hand-in-hand through their (Battery Life!)
All the people, so many people,
They all go hand-in-hand, hand-in-hand through their (Battery Life!)
Credit to Blur and GPT4o
Of what is known as (Battery Life!)
And morning plug-ins can be avoided if you take a short commute,
In your little e-car (Battery Life!)
Battery Life!
I charge up in the carport,
Despite the neighbors laughing at my extension cord,
But it gives me a sense of enormous well-being (Battery Life!)
And I’m happy for the rest of the day,
Safe in the knowledge I’m saving on gas (saving on gas).
All the people, so many people,
They all go hand-in-hand, hand-in-hand through their (Battery Life!)
I get up when I want except on charging day when I get rudely awakened by the beep of my Tesla (Battery Life!)
I put my shoes on, have a cup of tea and I think about leaving the house (Battery Life!)
I feed the charger, I sometimes feed the squirrel too,
It gives me a sense of enormous well-being (Battery Life!)
And then I’m happy for the rest of the day,
Safe in the knowledge I’m saving on gas (saving on gas).
All the people, so many people,
They all go hand-in-hand, hand-in-hand through their (Battery Life!)
Battery Life! (Battery Life!)
Battery Life! (Battery Life!)
It's got nothing to do with range anxiety or exploding batteries, you know,
(Battery Life!)
And it’s not about your uncle who swears that they just catch on fire and go 'boom'!
I hear it costs a fortune to replace the battery when it dies,
But that's a myth, mate (Battery Life!)
And what about the fact that there's not enough charging points around?
Another false tale (Battery Life!)
Battery Life!
I chuckle at the myths,
As I drive past the gas station lines,
And it gives me a sense of enormous well-being (Battery Life!)
And I'm happy for the rest of the day,
Safe in the knowledge I'm saving on gas (saving on gas).
All the people, so many people,
They all go hand-in-hand, hand-in-hand through their (Battery Life!)
All the people, so many people,
They all go hand-in-hand, hand-in-hand through their (Battery Life!)
Credit to Blur and GPT4o
cliffords said:
I have looked at a few Toyota Prius, they are very cheap.
I have found out why the batteries have really gone bad. Many showing range of 60 miles
Was this different battlery technology.
It's a hybrid not an full EV, what sort of EV mileage were you expecting or is this just some sort of troll attempt?I have found out why the batteries have really gone bad. Many showing range of 60 miles
Was this different battlery technology.
briggsy1 said:
cliffords said:
I have looked at a few Toyota Prius, they are very cheap.
I have found out why the batteries have really gone bad. Many showing range of 60 miles
Was this different battlery technology.
It's a hybrid not an full EV, what sort of EV mileage were you expecting or is this just some sort of troll attempt?I have found out why the batteries have really gone bad. Many showing range of 60 miles
Was this different battlery technology.
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