VW to scale down production of evs
Discussion
Also the new BYD Dolphin... Stupid name but £25k and 260 mile range.... Loads of tech as standard... Getting positive reviews too.
Thats the reality of the Chinese competition. And right now the Chinese are pricing low enough to undercut the likes of VW just enough to convince buyers to take a serious look at a Chinese car. If they needed to drop the price further though, I strongly suspect they could - especially as production ramps up as BYD's ambitions for growth and scale are huge.
The only way European firms can counter this is to make exciting, desirable EV's. Many are doing that. Is the ID range exciting or diserable...
Thats the reality of the Chinese competition. And right now the Chinese are pricing low enough to undercut the likes of VW just enough to convince buyers to take a serious look at a Chinese car. If they needed to drop the price further though, I strongly suspect they could - especially as production ramps up as BYD's ambitions for growth and scale are huge.
The only way European firms can counter this is to make exciting, desirable EV's. Many are doing that. Is the ID range exciting or diserable...
If many people are like me then apathy is setting in and once that happens then it’s not good times for the folks trying to sell cars. I suspect this apathy stems from the realisation that some god awfulness like the BYD Dolphin is what it’s about now and it’s probably realistically as good or bad as anything else. I can’t say I’m seeing anything that I would describe as exciting or desirable. A BYD Dolphin that goes a bit faster with a German badge? Whoopie doo.
Really doesn’t surprise me. I had an ID3 for 5 months and hated every second of it. Slow. Nasty to drive. Software was absolutely terrible and interior quality was the poorest of any car I’d had since a 1987 Astra.
At the time I couldn’t stretch to a Tesla and wasn’t aware of many other brands but in 28 years of car ownership it was easily the worst car I’ve ever owned.
At the time I couldn’t stretch to a Tesla and wasn’t aware of many other brands but in 28 years of car ownership it was easily the worst car I’ve ever owned.
Not surprised in the slightest.
The original ID3 was a huge disappointment, and nowhere near remotely acceptable in terms of the software and controls.
From a company that recently made the user friendly, one size fits all MK7 Golf (I had a few), I struggle to see how they managed to get the ID3 so wrong.
I’m good friends several ID3 owners, they’re not turning out to be the most reliable things either.
The original ID3 was a huge disappointment, and nowhere near remotely acceptable in terms of the software and controls.
From a company that recently made the user friendly, one size fits all MK7 Golf (I had a few), I struggle to see how they managed to get the ID3 so wrong.
I’m good friends several ID3 owners, they’re not turning out to be the most reliable things either.
tr7v8 said:
To add to the above apparently the delivery dates on all the mainstream european EVs was horrendous. People quoting 10 months plus.
And the rest.. Id3 and Id4 were on a 62 week lead time to arval at the tail end of last year, and if they can't get one who can? I didn't even bother to test drive as the delivery time put me right off, so ended up in an Xc40 recharge which suits us perfectly. Edited by tvrfan007 on Sunday 2nd July 06:36
Ella Jean said:
Not surprised in the slightest.
The original ID3 was a huge disappointment, and nowhere near remotely acceptable in terms of the software and controls.
From a company that recently made the user friendly, one size fits all MK7 Golf (I had a few), I struggle to see how they managed to get the ID3 so wrong.
I’m good friends several ID3 owners, they’re not turning out to be the most reliable things either.
I had an ID.3 loaner a few wks ago and thought it was generally OK - didn’t like the A posts blind spots and it keep flashing up various anti-collision warnings on country roads but I think all newer cars do that.The original ID3 was a huge disappointment, and nowhere near remotely acceptable in terms of the software and controls.
From a company that recently made the user friendly, one size fits all MK7 Golf (I had a few), I struggle to see how they managed to get the ID3 so wrong.
I’m good friends several ID3 owners, they’re not turning out to be the most reliable things either.
I don’t know why VW didn’t just continue with eGolf (although needed more range). The ID models all seem odd sizes - certainly baffled my wife so I’m sure must confuse many VW customers.
I went in an id5 the other day. Despite what reviews I've since read say, I thought it rode very well.
Interior was only ok, but I thought it was a 40k car. For the price it actually is, it's unacceptable, and way off my polestar.
Sat nav lady also kept cutting in every 5 minutes, presumably hearing something in our conversation that sparked her unto life? That would drive me up the wall!
The product isn't good enough.
Interior was only ok, but I thought it was a 40k car. For the price it actually is, it's unacceptable, and way off my polestar.
Sat nav lady also kept cutting in every 5 minutes, presumably hearing something in our conversation that sparked her unto life? That would drive me up the wall!
The product isn't good enough.
covmutley said:
I went in an id5 the other day. Despite what reviews I've since read say, I thought it rode very well.
Interior was only ok, but I thought it was a 40k car. For the price it actually is, it's unacceptable, and way off my polestar.
Sat nav lady also kept cutting in every 5 minutes, presumably hearing something in our conversation that sparked her unto life? That would drive me up the wall!
The product isn't good enough.
That's about the size of it, IMO. The ID3 interior is pants and the electronics are detestable; a bit of a joke given the purchase price and subsequent monthlies. If that is the same across the rest of their ID range then no wonder this is where they are at.Interior was only ok, but I thought it was a 40k car. For the price it actually is, it's unacceptable, and way off my polestar.
Sat nav lady also kept cutting in every 5 minutes, presumably hearing something in our conversation that sparked her unto life? That would drive me up the wall!
The product isn't good enough.
I haven’t driven any of these as yet, but anecdotally, reading people’s views and seeing particular cars on driveways, it feels like..
Tesla = iPhone
MG, Kia, Hyundai, etc = Android
BMW = Google Pixel
VW = Nokia
It’s all about the tech for most people who just want a to b. Tesla do it consistently across the range, other manufacturers seem to have it working in a decent package to suit different budgets. BMW aren’t doing bad at it for corporate types, and VW forgot to keep pace.
Tesla = iPhone
MG, Kia, Hyundai, etc = Android
BMW = Google Pixel
VW = Nokia
It’s all about the tech for most people who just want a to b. Tesla do it consistently across the range, other manufacturers seem to have it working in a decent package to suit different budgets. BMW aren’t doing bad at it for corporate types, and VW forgot to keep pace.
page3 said:
I think it shows it is no longer acceptable to simply make an EV, it needs to be a good car too.
Exactly, the whole ID Range looks absolutely crap especially the ID5, i think I must have seen about 5 of them, where as I’ve lost count of the amount of Q4 and enyaq I have seen.I think the biggest success is just putting an electric motor in a normal car, i see loads of corsas, 208 and Citroen c4.
Did you know the government subsidises stagecoach by paying the difference between a diesel bus and an electric one? Roughly £100,000 a time? Yet they can’t do that for cars?
covmutley said:
I went in an id5 the other day. Despite what reviews I've since read say, I thought it rode very well.
Interior was only ok, but I thought it was a 40k car. For the price it actually is, it's unacceptable, and way off my polestar.
Sat nav lady also kept cutting in every 5 minutes, presumably hearing something in our conversation that sparked her unto life? That would drive me up the wall!
The product isn't good enough.
I might be due a parrot but it’s £50K isn’t it?Interior was only ok, but I thought it was a 40k car. For the price it actually is, it's unacceptable, and way off my polestar.
Sat nav lady also kept cutting in every 5 minutes, presumably hearing something in our conversation that sparked her unto life? That would drive me up the wall!
The product isn't good enough.
There are going to be lots of changes as developed markets head towards 2030/35 and 2050.
VW has a brand issue. As an overtly corrupt business at Porsche SE Board level they've repelled quite a few middle income buyers. However, so has Musk created a repulsion for his brand and MG's owner causes quite enormous repulsion.
What this highlights mainly is that Brits might be repulsed by someone or something but it won't stop them from gleefully teabagging them if the price is right.
The big difference between Tesla, MG and VW is that the first two are building in China. A lot of VW's mid range, volume stuff isn't yet. Tesla and MG have fat margins that mean they cut undercut anything VW is selling whenever they want. VW is used to being in that position and now finds itself on the backfoot in a mid range market they used to dominate with ICE.
And while everything in China looks to be deflating everything in the EU is still inflating.
In the U.K. we have the possibility of the ZEV Mandate being enacted which may make the margin disparity between Tesla/MG and VW worse.
What's interesting is that while VW is publicly still pushing their full EV policy apparently behind the scenes they're funnelling more and more into the lobby groups that work to extend the life of ICE sales. I suspect if that's accurate then VW have yet another board room scandal brewing alongside their eFuels carbon sourcing one.
VW has a brand issue. As an overtly corrupt business at Porsche SE Board level they've repelled quite a few middle income buyers. However, so has Musk created a repulsion for his brand and MG's owner causes quite enormous repulsion.
What this highlights mainly is that Brits might be repulsed by someone or something but it won't stop them from gleefully teabagging them if the price is right.
The big difference between Tesla, MG and VW is that the first two are building in China. A lot of VW's mid range, volume stuff isn't yet. Tesla and MG have fat margins that mean they cut undercut anything VW is selling whenever they want. VW is used to being in that position and now finds itself on the backfoot in a mid range market they used to dominate with ICE.
And while everything in China looks to be deflating everything in the EU is still inflating.
In the U.K. we have the possibility of the ZEV Mandate being enacted which may make the margin disparity between Tesla/MG and VW worse.
What's interesting is that while VW is publicly still pushing their full EV policy apparently behind the scenes they're funnelling more and more into the lobby groups that work to extend the life of ICE sales. I suspect if that's accurate then VW have yet another board room scandal brewing alongside their eFuels carbon sourcing one.
According to an article on the Autocar website it's not just VW that is seeing a drop in demand:
"In an interview with the North-West newspaper, the minister of economic affairs for the state of Lower Saxony, Olaf Lies, commented on the measures introduced by Volkswagen at Emden, describing them as “understandable”.
“The registration numbers of electric vehicles continue to be high, but what concerns us is the current dip in demand – not only at Volkswagen but across all manufacturers,” said Lies.”"
I've not seen any mention of a general fall in demand in Germany so this might be a bit of arm-waving since, aiui, Lower Saxony is a major shareholder in VW.....
"In an interview with the North-West newspaper, the minister of economic affairs for the state of Lower Saxony, Olaf Lies, commented on the measures introduced by Volkswagen at Emden, describing them as “understandable”.
“The registration numbers of electric vehicles continue to be high, but what concerns us is the current dip in demand – not only at Volkswagen but across all manufacturers,” said Lies.”"
I've not seen any mention of a general fall in demand in Germany so this might be a bit of arm-waving since, aiui, Lower Saxony is a major shareholder in VW.....
I suspect VW may be ok if they can get their act together with EV, owing to the colossal scale the VAG group have and can employ. They're having a blip, but overall in non-PH circles, the brand still has a decent rep.
The Golf 8 is a step back in quality too, I'd take a 7/7.5 Golf GTD over an 8, and certainly over any of their EVs currently available.
The Golf 8 is a step back in quality too, I'd take a 7/7.5 Golf GTD over an 8, and certainly over any of their EVs currently available.
Mikehig said:
According to an article on the Autocar website it's not just VW that is seeing a drop in demand:
"In an interview with the North-West newspaper, the minister of economic affairs for the state of Lower Saxony, Olaf Lies, commented on the measures introduced by Volkswagen at Emden, describing them as “understandable”.
“The registration numbers of electric vehicles continue to be high, but what concerns us is the current dip in demand – not only at Volkswagen but across all manufacturers,” said Lies.”"
I've not seen any mention of a general fall in demand in Germany so this might be a bit of arm-waving since, aiui, Lower Saxony is a major shareholder in VW.....
EVs remain premium budget products so I think I would have been surprised given the current economic situation if demand for them hadn't generally seen some weakness or falls even. "In an interview with the North-West newspaper, the minister of economic affairs for the state of Lower Saxony, Olaf Lies, commented on the measures introduced by Volkswagen at Emden, describing them as “understandable”.
“The registration numbers of electric vehicles continue to be high, but what concerns us is the current dip in demand – not only at Volkswagen but across all manufacturers,” said Lies.”"
I've not seen any mention of a general fall in demand in Germany so this might be a bit of arm-waving since, aiui, Lower Saxony is a major shareholder in VW.....
There's probably good demand from higher income workers who can remain at the same sort of product level for the same previous spend by switching from a premium ICE to an EV and taking the BIK advantage but lower down the income range it would surprise me if many had eased on their plans to go EV as they don't get any BIK advantage, charging costs have risen, petrol costs have fallen (doesn't matter if petrol use would cost more people just look at numbers and don't do much else with them) and used EVs probably represent better value than paying a huge premium for a new one when you don't get the tax breaks.
If the ZEV mandate comes in then it could have so very odd pricing effects on the market as some manufacturers would need to sell all their EVs at a loss of up to £15k per unit to avoid the unit penalties.
Personally, as we import all our EVs I think the ZEV Mandate might be a brilliant tool that throws up some weird changes.
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