Hybrid's - to plug or not to plug

[plfrench]

James6112 said:

I’d hazard a guess, that it’s an illustration of available performance compared to the economy.
Rather than I hit 60 in 5.8 secs off of the train/ferry & still got 40 mpg.
It’s not hard to understand

I was interested in understanding how much the economy was hit by using the performance with a PHEV as I skipped the hybrid stage when going to EV.

[TheDeuce]

plfrench said:

James6112 said:

I’d hazard a guess, that it’s an illustration of available performance compared to the economy.
Rather than I hit 60 in 5.8 secs off of the train/ferry & still got 40 mpg.
It’s not hard to understand

I was interested in understanding how much the economy was hit by using the performance with a PHEV as I skipped the hybrid stage when going to EV.

Given that peak power requires full input from both the electric motor and ICE, it's going to hit far harder than in a BEV - which is multiple times more efficient than ICE, especially at higher rpm.

Although on a long trip, occasional heavy use of the fast pedal to overtake etc is hardly going to have a big effect.

[paralla]

James6112 said:

I’d hazard a guess, that it’s an illustration of available performance compared to the economy.
Rather than I hit 60 in 5.8 secs off of the train/ferry & still got 40 mpg.
It’s not hard to understand

James wins a prize!

A Mazda CX-60 is a somewhat left field kind of car. It’s fairly new to the market without a long lineage so maybe people are unfamiliar with the performance potential.

FYI it also has a longitudinal engine layout, RWD biased AWD system, double wishbone front end and is fairly stiffly sprung. It’s not the big, soft family but it looks like.

[paralla]

plfrench said:

James6112 said:

I’d hazard a guess, that it’s an illustration of available performance compared to the economy.
Rather than I hit 60 in 5.8 secs off of the train/ferry & still got 40 mpg.
It’s not hard to understand

I was interested in understanding how much the economy was hit by using the performance with a PHEV as I skipped the hybrid stage when going to EV.

A few stabs of the accelerator at half a dozen toll booths over a 14 hour journey isn’t going to adversely impact the economy too much. It only has a 2.5L naturally aspirated, 4cyl engine so it doesn’t drink fuel like a turbo V6 (that might provide similar performance without the electric motor) 90% of the 1400km was on radar cruise a few km/h above the speed limit.

Edited by paralla on Sunday 23 June 18:03

[clockworks]

CX60 Mazda looks like an unusual hybrid setup? According to the Mazda website, the total power output is 241kw, with a 127kw electric motor, so 114kw from the 2.5 litre ICE.

I guess that makes it fairly spritely when running on the battery, but just 150bhp from a 2.5 litre ICE is quite low these days.

[ajprice]

clockworks said:

CX60 Mazda looks like an unusual hybrid setup? According to the Mazda website, the total power output is 241kw, with a 127kw electric motor, so 114kw from the 2.5 litre ICE.

I guess that makes it fairly spritely when running on the battery, but just 150bhp from a 2.5 litre ICE is quite low these days.

It might be Atkinson cycle to make it more economical, like Toyotas.

[paralla]

The petrol engine has 191bhp.
The electric motor has 134bhp.

Combined outputs are 323 hp (327 PS; 241 kW) and 500 N⋅m (51.0 kg⋅m; 369 lb⋅ft) of torque.

It’s Mazda’s Skyactive G 2.5

Edited by paralla on Sunday 23 June 19:40

[Phil.]

It does make me smile all this fawning over a PHEV when most mild-hybrids will perform similarly in terms of mpg without having to recharge on a longer journey.

My 2.5 tonne D350 FFRR would have completed the 14hr journey with one fill up and averaged over 40mpg, including the peage sprints.

Please remind me what PHEV’s do better than mild hybrids or EV’s?

[Evanivitch]

Phil. said:

It does make me smile all this fawning over a PHEV when most mild-hybrids will perform similarly in terms of mpg without having to recharge on a longer journey.

My 2.5 tonne D350 FFRR would have completed the 14hr journey with one fill up and averaged over 40mpg, including the peage sprints.

Please remind me what PHEV’s do better than mild hybrids or EV’s?

I was doing 280 miles a week commute on electric (at average 2.5p/kWh) in my PHEV, and then a 360 mile round trip couple times a month at 45 MPG and 45p/mile reimbursement. But this was pre-2020 when the options for a 180 mile EV were slim and public chargers were poor. PHEV often fit a very specific need, but sometimes at the detriment of being a poor EV and a poor ICE.

[Phil.]

Evanivitch said:

I was doing 280 miles a week commute on electric (at average 2.5p/kWh) in my PHEV, and then a 360 mile round trip couple times a month at 45 MPG and 45p/mile reimbursement. But this was pre-2020 when the options for a 180 mile EV were slim and public chargers were poor. PHEV often fit a very specific need, but sometimes at the detriment of being a poor EV and a poor ICE.

Exactly PHEV’s are a compromise between EV’s and mild-hybrid.

[paralla]

Phil. said:

It does make me smile all this fawning over a PHEV when most mild-hybrids will perform similarly in terms of mpg without having to recharge on a longer journey.

My 2.5 tonne D350 FFRR would have completed the 14hr journey with one fill up and averaged over 40mpg, including the peage sprints.

Please remind me what PHEV’s do better than mild hybrids or EV’s?

You produce no tailpipe emissions and enjoy a very smooth, very quiet experience on short, local journeys unlike mild hybrids.

You don’t have to suffer at the mercy of public chargers on long journeys like you do with an EV.

A D350 FFRR does an identical 5.8 Second 0-60 mpg as a PHEV CX-60 but it has a WLTP fuel economy of 34 - 34.8 mpg and sounds like a tractor. You are doing well to better the WLTP mpg. I’m glad you like your car.

Edit to add: I didn’t have to charge my PHEV on the longer journey.

Edited by paralla on Sunday 23 June 22:29

[Jimbob2405]

For what its worth, PHEVs are also a hugely popular option for the company car folk.

I've just got a Rav 4 PHEV GR through work. Mine for 3 years and i'm paying £60 a month for it.

It'll do 45 miles on EV alone, costing £1.20 to charge fully. £55 to fill the tank with Petrol. 5.8 Secs to 60.

I've got a fuel card for all my miles. Because its a 2.5ltr engine my personal miles get reimbursed to me at a 26pence per mile discount. Some months i will get paid to drive my car . I know this isn't typical for most people but i think a large portion of the PHEV customer base is company cars.

[Whataguy]

Jimbob2405 said:

Some months i will get paid to drive my car . I know this isn't typical for most people but i think a large portion of the PHEV customer base is company cars.

I’d heard there were a lot of Mitsubishi PHEVs sold to companies as the choice was limited a few years ago.

They were great for the company car driver due to low costs, but some drivers didn’t seem to get how to use them.

I’d heard of cars at the end of the lease being collected and the charge cable was still in its wrapper as it had never been plugged in!

[clockworks]

paralla said:

The petrol engine has 191bhp.
The electric motor has 134bhp.

Combined outputs are 323 hp (327 PS; 241 kW) and 500 N?m (51.0 kg?m; 369 lb?ft) of torque.

It’s Mazda’s Skyactive G 2.5

Edited by paralla on Sunday 23 June 19:40

Mazda website has different figure for the electric motor:

https://www.mazda.co.uk/cars/mazda-cx-60/specs-and...

[paralla]

clockworks said:

paralla said:

The petrol engine has 191bhp.
The electric motor has 134bhp.

Combined outputs are 323 hp (327 PS; 241 kW) and 500 N?m (51.0 kg?m; 369 lb?ft) of torque.

It’s Mazda’s Skyactive G 2.5

Edited by paralla on Sunday 23 June 19:40

Mazda website has different figure for the electric motor:

https://www.mazda.co.uk/cars/mazda-cx-60/specs-and...

The above numbers are from Wiki
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyactiv

But I believe Mazda. I’m not sure why the output of the petrol and the electric motor doesn’t add up to equal the total combined output. It certainly feels plenty fast enough on just the electric motor.

[RicksAlfas]

Whataguy said:

I’d heard there were a lot of Mitsubishi PHEVs sold to companies as the choice was limited a few years ago.

They were great for the company car driver due to low costs, but some drivers didn’t seem to get how to use them.

I’d heard of cars at the end of the lease being collected and the charge cable was still in its wrapper as it had never been plugged in!

I think this was true with a lot of early company car PHEVs. The typical attitude being "I'm not using my electricity to charge a company car".
The manufacturers are wise to it now. We have a Formentor plug in at work and the warranty is explicit stating that the battery must be fully charged at least every 90 days otherwise the battery warranty is invalid. I bet many of those early PHEV's entering the used car market had poor batteries!

[Evanivitch]

RicksAlfas said:

I think this was true with a lot of early company car PHEVs. The typical attitude being "I'm not using my electricity to charge a company car".
The manufacturers are wise to it now. We have a Formentor plug in at work and the warranty is explicit stating that the battery must be fully charged at least every 90 days otherwise the battery warranty is invalid. I bet many of those early PHEV's entering the used car market had poor batteries!

That's very interesting!

[ajprice]

paralla said:

clockworks said:

paralla said:

The petrol engine has 191bhp.
The electric motor has 134bhp.

Combined outputs are 323 hp (327 PS; 241 kW) and 500 N?m (51.0 kg?m; 369 lb?ft) of torque.

It’s Mazda’s Skyactive G 2.5

Edited by paralla on Sunday 23 June 19:40

Mazda website has different figure for the electric motor:

https://www.mazda.co.uk/cars/mazda-cx-60/specs-and...

The above numbers are from Wiki
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyactiv

But I believe Mazda. I’m not sure why the output of the petrol and the electric motor doesn’t add up to equal the total combined output. It certainly feels plenty fast enough on just the electric motor.

The power and torque curves of engines and electric motors are different. It's a well known benefit that EV motors have maximum torque from 0, the power does build with revs though. The engine power curve and an EV power curve won't peak at the same time, so a hybrid with a 150bhp engine and 150bhp motor won't give you 300bhp.

[Phil.]

paralla said:

Phil. said:

It does make me smile all this fawning over a PHEV when most mild-hybrids will perform similarly in terms of mpg without having to recharge on a longer journey.

My 2.5 tonne D350 FFRR would have completed the 14hr journey with one fill up and averaged over 40mpg, including the peage sprints.

Please remind me what PHEV’s do better than mild hybrids or EV’s?

You produce no tailpipe emissions and enjoy a very smooth, very quiet experience on short, local journeys unlike mild hybrids.

You don’t have to suffer at the mercy of public chargers on long journeys like you do with an EV.

A D350 FFRR does an identical 5.8 Second 0-60 mpg as a PHEV CX-60 but it has a WLTP fuel economy of 34 - 34.8 mpg and sounds like a tractor. You are doing well to better the WLTP mpg. I’m glad you like your car.

Edit to add: I didn’t have to charge my PHEV on the longer journey.

Edited by paralla on Sunday 23 June 22:29

If I understand correctly the only thing PHEV’s do better than a mild-hybrid or EV is to shift the tailpipe emissions somewhere else whilst on a short journey, because they produce tailpipe emissions on longer journeys?

In order to achieve this phenomenon PHEV’s lug massive batteries around all of the time making them less efficient than mild-hybrids and producing more tailpipe emissions than an EV.

As others have highlighted PHEV’s really only make financial sense if they are owned as a company car, and that’s only because of the current political taxation system which will change at some point.

As for my tractor, you might want to drive one because I can guarantee it’s engine is far quieter than your 4 pot Mazda petrol is when dragging your 2 tonne battery laden PHEV away from the peage

Edited to add that I managed over 50mpg on one part of a tour of Scotland last year and as I said 40mpg+ is normal on longer journeys for my tractor.

Edited by Phil. on Monday 24th June 09:45

[paralla]

Phil. said:

If I understand correctly the only thing PHEV’s do better than a mild-hybrid or EV is to shift the tailpipe emissions somewhere else whilst on a short journey, because they produce tailpipe emissions on longer journeys?

In order to achieve this phenomenon PHEV’s lug massive batteries around all of the time making them less efficient than mild-hybrids and producing more tailpipe emissions than an EV.

As others have highlighted PHEV’s really only make financial sense if they are owned as a company car, and that’s only because of the current political taxation system which will change at some point.

As for my tractor, you might want to drive one because I can guarantee it’s engine is far quieter than your 4 pot Mazda petrol is when dragging your 2 tonne battery laden PHEV away from the peage

No, you don’t understand correctly. We get it, you don’t like PHEV’s. I gave up arguing with strangers on the internet years ago, have fun shouting at clouds, I’m out.

Edited to add: Using your metric of app reported figures my husbands hybrid CH-R does over 100mpg.

Edited by paralla on Monday 24th June 09:56