A major little word of warning re. EV conversions
Discussion
e600 said:
DVLA madness isnt restricted to EV conversions. A friend of mine sent his FHC E Type Jaguar, a car he has owned from new, in to a well known restoration company for a full rebuild. He requested the car be built as a roadster.
It is possible to buy all the panels for this build from Jaguar Heritage, or their suppliers and build the car exactly as Jaguar would have done in the 60’s and probably to a better standard.
Once the restoration was complete the owner informed DVLA under change of body type. Not only won’t the DVLA provide him a V5 registering it as a convertible, they have withdrawn the original V5.
This is for a car that is built to the same specification as an original roadster. His MP has been involved and can’t get DVLA to see sense.
On a mini theme it was not uncommon to cut out a lot of rusty bits and fit a flimsy fibreglass tilting front end, I expect that would make DLVAs head explode.
You can thank entities like the Cotswold Kit Car Club and all their knock off Bugatti's plus the classic car industry's love of fraud and that re shelling to a more expensive vehicle is a favourite past time for Dodgy Pete the mechanic and Grifter Graham the post-elocution auctioneer. It is possible to buy all the panels for this build from Jaguar Heritage, or their suppliers and build the car exactly as Jaguar would have done in the 60’s and probably to a better standard.
Once the restoration was complete the owner informed DVLA under change of body type. Not only won’t the DVLA provide him a V5 registering it as a convertible, they have withdrawn the original V5.
This is for a car that is built to the same specification as an original roadster. His MP has been involved and can’t get DVLA to see sense.
On a mini theme it was not uncommon to cut out a lot of rusty bits and fit a flimsy fibreglass tilting front end, I expect that would make DLVAs head explode.
The DVLA wer lax on this for decades. One might even suspect that employees were financially complicit in the creation of fraud after fraud. But in recent years they've been asked to stop facilitating the creation of fake cars and the laundering of paperwork.
Ergo, we now have the problem, as always, that those wanting to carry out a kosher conversion of a cheaper classic to a more valuable one gets treated the same way as all the myriad fraudsters.
What's sad is that the 'well known' restoration company didn't warn their customer of this risk as they would have known 100% all about it as they are on the front line but instead chose to keep quiet and take your friend's money.
I don't exactly hold the DVLA up to any standard, I think it's full of jobsworths as well as bigots and I think they've been taking money under false pretences for decades in the classic car market, facilitating fraud after fraud after fraud and as a Govt organisation now they've swung the other way they're not going to be smart enough to handle the new regime sensibly. However, that said, in comparison to the car restoration, modification and sales industry, they are absolute angels and geniuses.
Why on Earth customers repeatedly take what these businesses say as gospel is beyond me. They are liars, charlatans or massive egos for the most part that will spew out any old tripe and assurances to get hold of your money. It's an absolute minefield finding the good ones and word of mouth isn't ideal as most customers are mugs who just want to believe they haven't been ripped off so run around gobbing how good a shyster's work is as they do with plenty of tradesmen who have bent them over.
Here is the reality: The bloke who is going to get all the money from you for your conversion does not care about the post conversion stuff and will say whatever it takes to get you to leave your car with him and start sending him money.
This is a wholly unregulated market where you have to be your own regulator. You are the only person who can confirm what the DVLA need or who can draw up legals whereby the salesman has to stand by his pitch or be accountable.
For instance, it is near impossible for a 'well known restoration company' to not have been fully aware of the robust changes within the dvla over the last decade and the risk to the customer. Either they made the customer aware but he didn't care because a roadster was way more valuable than a FHC or they opted to deceive him by keeping quiet about the risks.
At this point, is it 100% the DVLA's fault? They're a very useful scapegoat.
When embarking on a car project that will involve the DVLA only a total moron takes the word of the bloke they'll be paying to do the work!!
V8covin said:
Nothing about the iva is clear, I've had multiple conversations with vosa and they always defer final judgement to the tester
And that's one of the issues with the system. Not all testers are equal. In fact some are bitter, hate filled, bags or cr4p hiding behind a clipboard waiting to dish out punishment to those they don't like. In times gone past you'd never take your car yourself and risk meeting someone who hated you but for a brief moment in time held so much power over you but send a specialist who knew their way around the person with the clipboard.
Can you still do that?
Anyone who has owned an old Leyland Mini knows that some of them get hopelessly bodged, and then pass an MoT and legally used. I'm talking about sills rusted out with cover sills welded on top, And, yes, boot floors rusted out, but welded back in so you can bolt the rear subframe to it.
Those cars are far more dangerous than this EV Mini, making the DVLA look - well, questionable.
Those cars are far more dangerous than this EV Mini, making the DVLA look - well, questionable.
Edited by M4cruiser on Sunday 23 June 17:26
bitsilly said:
No paperwork to speak of, just a letter and another refusing the appeal.
They would not let me see the inspectors report, even when I used FOI request, and also refused to let my MP see it.
The consensus is that they used an excuse to stop my conversion, if it wasn't holes it would be something else.
The EV industry are having all sorts of problems now too with refusals due to 'new problems'.
The rules haven't changed. I've said for ages that most of the EV conversions are not road legal.They would not let me see the inspectors report, even when I used FOI request, and also refused to let my MP see it.
The consensus is that they used an excuse to stop my conversion, if it wasn't holes it would be something else.
The EV industry are having all sorts of problems now too with refusals due to 'new problems'.
You can't modify the 'chassis', that is the rule. Which includes drilling and mounting brackets as well as welding. With your build it isn't just this, you lost points on the engine change. Not sure if also on gearbox/steering. And possibly "axles" depending on how you are transmitting the power to the wheels.
I can't see any reason why you couldn't IVA it. You would just have to follow the rules and end up on a Q plate and no longer tax or MoT exempt.
This is worth reading
https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=237...
The OP has already posted on there but it's interesting for the rest of us
https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=237...
The OP has already posted on there but it's interesting for the rest of us
Edited by V8covin on Saturday 24th December 17:30
M4cruiser said:
300bhp/ton said:
You can't modify the 'chassis', that is the rule. Which includes drilling and mounting brackets as well as welding. .
Chassis welding is illegal on an old car now? I don't think so.e600 said:
DVLA madness isnt restricted to EV conversions. A friend of mine sent his FHC E Type Jaguar, a car he has owned from new, in to a well known restoration company for a full rebuild. He requested the car be built as a roadster.
It is possible to buy all the panels for this build from Jaguar Heritage, or their suppliers and build the car exactly as Jaguar would have done in the 60’s and probably to a better standard.
Once the restoration was complete the owner informed DVLA under change of body type. Not only won’t the DVLA provide him a V5 registering it as a convertible, they have withdrawn the original V5.
This is for a car that is built to the same specification as an original roadster. His MP has been involved and can’t get DVLA to see sense.
On a mini theme it was not uncommon to cut out a lot of rusty bits and fit a flimsy fibreglass tilting front end, I expect that would make DLVAs head explode.
Frankly, I think this is perfectly reasonable. A 60’s E Type, roadster or coupe would never pass modern safety regs. It’s fair enough allowing a car to be grandfathered, but only if it is not materially altered. Once you turn it into a roadster it should be built to modern specs, and pass the IVA, not the 1960’s regulations. It is possible to buy all the panels for this build from Jaguar Heritage, or their suppliers and build the car exactly as Jaguar would have done in the 60’s and probably to a better standard.
Once the restoration was complete the owner informed DVLA under change of body type. Not only won’t the DVLA provide him a V5 registering it as a convertible, they have withdrawn the original V5.
This is for a car that is built to the same specification as an original roadster. His MP has been involved and can’t get DVLA to see sense.
On a mini theme it was not uncommon to cut out a lot of rusty bits and fit a flimsy fibreglass tilting front end, I expect that would make DLVAs head explode.
300bhp/ton said:
bitsilly said:
No paperwork to speak of, just a letter and another refusing the appeal.
They would not let me see the inspectors report, even when I used FOI request, and also refused to let my MP see it.
The consensus is that they used an excuse to stop my conversion, if it wasn't holes it would be something else.
The EV industry are having all sorts of problems now too with refusals due to 'new problems'.
The rules haven't changed. I've said for ages that most of the EV conversions are not road legal.They would not let me see the inspectors report, even when I used FOI request, and also refused to let my MP see it.
The consensus is that they used an excuse to stop my conversion, if it wasn't holes it would be something else.
The EV industry are having all sorts of problems now too with refusals due to 'new problems'.
You can't modify the 'chassis', that is the rule. Which includes drilling and mounting brackets as well as welding. With your build it isn't just this, you lost points on the engine change. Not sure if also on gearbox/steering. And possibly "axles" depending on how you are transmitting the power to the wheels.
I can't see any reason why you couldn't IVA it. You would just have to follow the rules and end up on a Q plate and no longer tax or MoT exempt.
Export56 said:
Never knew this, learn something every day. Youtube is full of non compliant cars then, people sticking honda engines in minis and chopping them about, far worse than a couple of holes in a boot.
That's not, per se, what defines non compliance. There is almost no issues when it comes to swapping engines. You can also muck about with parts of the metal work. The two core issues arise when at the front end of a project the originator comprehensively fails to be arsed to establish what they can or can't legitimately do and then at the back end of a project get unlucky with the individual tester who may be one of those civil servants who overtly dislikes. Particular type of person or who holds extreme views as to what they personally think is permissible.
Both of these risks are navigable by the owner but the bulk of issues arise because the owners are compo players who prefer to not listen, not do any research but to just wade in, do what they want to do and then blame someone else at the end when they've done it wrong.
DonkeyApple said:
Why must you not inform the DVLA?
And obviously not a single person is converting an exempt classic so as to be exempt. People are converting them for fun.
Whether it's for fun or because the ICE is kaput and so expensive to repair, or for whatever reason, if they do inform the DVLA, they will likely have the dilemma of the OP. And obviously not a single person is converting an exempt classic so as to be exempt. People are converting them for fun.
Vintage Voltage made massive alterations to make the battery boxes to fit, the Gordon Keeble for instance had the entire bulkhead behind the rear seats cut out to fit in a battery box. They may have welded strengthening back in, but this and most of the vehicle registrations I checked had the vehicles still recorded as having ICE fitted. If it was a simple process, they would now have a record as being EVs, but they're not.
sixor8 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Why must you not inform the DVLA?
And obviously not a single person is converting an exempt classic so as to be exempt. People are converting them for fun.
Whether it's for fun or because the ICE is kaput and so expensive to repair, or for whatever reason, if they do inform the DVLA, they will likely have the dilemma of the OP. And obviously not a single person is converting an exempt classic so as to be exempt. People are converting them for fun.
Vintage Voltage made massive alterations to make the battery boxes to fit, the Gordon Keeble for instance had the entire bulkhead behind the rear seats cut out to fit in a battery box. They may have welded strengthening back in, but this and most of the vehicle registrations I checked had the vehicles still recorded as having ICE fitted. If it was a simple process, they would now have a record as being EVs, but they're not.
Why can you cut speaker holes in the parcel shelf of a mini but not the rear bulkhead or floor pan? Why can you cut up the boot floor of a Range Rover or Land Rover but not a mini?
Personally, having done more than one restomod, I wouldn't undertake any change that put me at the mercy of meeting some adenoidal, life wasted, cretin on a bit of government owned tarmac. It's a complete lottery as to whether it is a normal human waiting for you or some prejudiced little wiener.
What would be interesting to know regarding Vintage Voltage is whether they offer a service to customers to amend their V5 correctly, whether they advise customers to not amend their V5 or some position inbetween.
DonkeyApple said:
A GK is body on frame which makes a big legal difference to say a mini where the body is treated the same as a monocoque and rightly so given that it is the floor pan and the two bulkheads that connect to the subframes together.
Why can you cut speaker holes in the parcel shelf of a mini but not the rear bulkhead or floor pan? Why can you cut up the boot floor of a Range Rover or Land Rover but not a mini?
Personally, having done more than one restomod, I wouldn't undertake any change that put me at the mercy of meeting some adenoidal, life wasted, cretin on a bit of government owned tarmac. It's a complete lottery as to whether it is a normal human waiting for you or some prejudiced little wiener.
What would be interesting to know regarding Vintage Voltage is whether they offer a service to customers to amend their V5 correctly, whether they advise customers to not amend their V5 or some position inbetween.
just curious how many of these have you met in real life? I've no experience, just wondered what yours was.Why can you cut speaker holes in the parcel shelf of a mini but not the rear bulkhead or floor pan? Why can you cut up the boot floor of a Range Rover or Land Rover but not a mini?
Personally, having done more than one restomod, I wouldn't undertake any change that put me at the mercy of meeting some adenoidal, life wasted, cretin on a bit of government owned tarmac. It's a complete lottery as to whether it is a normal human waiting for you or some prejudiced little wiener.
What would be interesting to know regarding Vintage Voltage is whether they offer a service to customers to amend their V5 correctly, whether they advise customers to not amend their V5 or some position inbetween.
BertBert said:
just curious how many of these have you met in real life? I've no experience, just wondered what yours was.
Several now. They're the same species as the car club whallopers who get given too much authority. It's why I asked the question a few days back whether you were still able to pay someone else to take your car to them so as to limit their ability to exercise prejudice. I built a Lancia Stratos replica, and IVA was hell.
I build an exact copy of a 1973 car (other than Busso v6 as opposed to Dino v6), with modern tested chassis
when I failed the 1st test - side repeater indicators, clips for front and rear clam, heater knob etc, I said "whats wrong with these" The tester said "they may have been fine in 1973, but it is now 2010 and your "new" car must pass 2010 regulations".
So even if that mini battery is fine, I doubt door hinges, bumpers etc will pass IVA and if trying to return to ICE it will then fail an IVA for same reasons- nothing to do with drive system. Poorly thought out regulations and poor administration of said regulations
I build an exact copy of a 1973 car (other than Busso v6 as opposed to Dino v6), with modern tested chassis
when I failed the 1st test - side repeater indicators, clips for front and rear clam, heater knob etc, I said "whats wrong with these" The tester said "they may have been fine in 1973, but it is now 2010 and your "new" car must pass 2010 regulations".
So even if that mini battery is fine, I doubt door hinges, bumpers etc will pass IVA and if trying to return to ICE it will then fail an IVA for same reasons- nothing to do with drive system. Poorly thought out regulations and poor administration of said regulations
Edited by hollytree on Tuesday 11th June 17:07
There's currently a government consultation running on potentially changing the very rules flagged up in this thread
https://www.gov.uk/government/calls-for-evidence/r...
so get your opinions in, and perhaps common sense might prevail.
(Mentioned on the excellent Autocar podcast with Steve Cropley and Matt Prior).
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