Discussion
Toaster Pilot said:
Durzel said:
If you amortise the deposit (which no one ever really does) then it's ~£580 a month for the top model, and ~£457 for the lowest one. That seems very good to me?
As always the 0% APR is a fallacy given you can buy one for a healthy discount off list if you’re not taking the finance It’s just a 2 year PCP at that rate too, so either hand it back having kissed goodbye to £14k or pay the £17k final payment.
You're kissing goodbye to £14k either way, either in straight payments or depreciation.
I bought my Tesla M3P outright, but based on its current value I've not really saved much compared to the lease costs I was being quoted 3 years ago. if I had put the money I used to buy it in to e.g. Tesla stock, well...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It also depends on the frequency of such trips. It's pointless saying that long road trips are easier in an ICE car without balancing that by accounting for how much easier the other 90-99% of shorter journeys are in an EV.If a person frequently goes on very long drives, buy a diesel! At least until public chargers are more reliable and the network denser for the occasions when one does let you down. And/or at least until battery tech has moved on in a significant way.
If a person occasionally goes on a long drive then enjoy the ease of use and benefits of an EV for all the other journeys and accept that on occasion, you will need to put a little more thought into the longer journeys. Although as has been stated, most of the time the longer journeys really aren't that taxing.
Durzel said:
Toaster Pilot said:
Durzel said:
If you amortise the deposit (which no one ever really does) then it's ~£580 a month for the top model, and ~£457 for the lowest one. That seems very good to me?
As always the 0% APR is a fallacy given you can buy one for a healthy discount off list if you’re not taking the finance It’s just a 2 year PCP at that rate too, so either hand it back having kissed goodbye to £14k or pay the £17k final payment.
You're kissing goodbye to £14k either way, either in straight payments or depreciation.
I bought my Tesla M3P outright, but based on its current value I've not really saved much compared to the lease costs I was being quoted 3 years ago. if I had put the money I used to buy it in to e.g. Tesla stock, well...
But then continuously running a new car, even a fairly basic one, has never been cheap!
ChunkyloverSV said:
TheDeuce said:
DMZ said:
So 1,800kg, 0-60 in 3.8 secs. If it drives well then it will be a bit uncomfortable further up the food chain. Performance is getting completely democratised. This was of course always coming as lots of power is now something that can be added to pretty much any car and by any manufacturer. Perhaps range is the real differentiator (for now) hence all the posts about it and chances are range is more important than the time it takes to hit the speed limit for most people.
I genuinely think that it's as simple as the first reaction to a battery car being: 'how far can it go'...'how long does it take to fill up'...Which I get, I completely understand that. I felt that way for about a decade.
But I had that view as a petrol car driver and I didn't see the flip side. I just assumed an electric car was the same deal until it ran out of juice and then I'd plug it in at the services and take the following day off work! Several years of EV later, of course it isn't like that. I charge at home so the car is always ready.
But the first reaction of the masses is what the motoring press will play upon, so therefore every EV is judged by its range. How stupid is that!? The Escort cosworth 2000 was not judged by its mpg.. A 944 turbo is not a s
t joke of a car because the back seats are useless...MG (the new MG) built a perfectly good family hatch which sells well and people like. They have now done the most PH thing possible and doubled the power, sorted out the chassis and invited the world to get excited.
The response from PH... 'what about the range'.
What about the bloody car??? We don't even know if it drives well yet! Assuming it does, I seriously doubt it's legacy will come down to range. I also dispute the fact that EV power being cheap and easy (which it is) means the only other aspect of the car worth considering is range. These are still cars, they're all unique and deserve to be discussed as cars - range is just one factor, one that is far less important than the naysayers or media obsess over.
Yes the downside of any EV is that if you exceed the range, you can't refill it as rapidly as you can with an ICE car...
the downside of a powerful, fun ICE car isn't that it takes too long to fill up, it's that it costs a fortune each time you fill up - and that's a frequent activity if you make use of the performance. But with fun ICE cars we don't obsess over such downsides as everyone knows and accepts the bleeding obvious, instead we focus on the merits of the car.
With EV, no focus on anything to do with the car, ever, until several pages of debate over range take place. The same debate and views every single time...
What about the car!?!!?
kambites said:
Durzel said:
Toaster Pilot said:
Durzel said:
If you amortise the deposit (which no one ever really does) then it's ~£580 a month for the top model, and ~£457 for the lowest one. That seems very good to me?
As always the 0% APR is a fallacy given you can buy one for a healthy discount off list if you’re not taking the finance It’s just a 2 year PCP at that rate too, so either hand it back having kissed goodbye to £14k or pay the £17k final payment.
You're kissing goodbye to £14k either way, either in straight payments or depreciation.
I bought my Tesla M3P outright, but based on its current value I've not really saved much compared to the lease costs I was being quoted 3 years ago. if I had put the money I used to buy it in to e.g. Tesla stock, well...
But then continuously running a new car, even a fairly basic one, has never been cheap!
On the other hand, for the very same reason, and for some other reasons... a lease is often a lot cheaper even allowing for the future residual value of you 'owned' the car.
One reason leasing is often a lot cheaper is that car manufacturers discount the cars going to lease companies to get them on the road and visible, to balance production rates (production lines run at their most efficient if they're flat out), or simply to rapidly monetise a stock of cars that are not selling (for endless potential reasons) whilst also taking a chunk out of competitors sales.
This is why I was recently offered a Tesla model Y for a little over £300+vat pm on a 9+35 8k pa deal. That's very cheap for a £45k car, about £13k for 3 years of use. If you bought it outright with cash you'd be unlikely to lose less money over the same period.
TheDeuce said:
kambites said:
Durzel said:
Toaster Pilot said:
Durzel said:
If you amortise the deposit (which no one ever really does) then it's ~£580 a month for the top model, and ~£457 for the lowest one. That seems very good to me?
As always the 0% APR is a fallacy given you can buy one for a healthy discount off list if you’re not taking the finance It’s just a 2 year PCP at that rate too, so either hand it back having kissed goodbye to £14k or pay the £17k final payment.
You're kissing goodbye to £14k either way, either in straight payments or depreciation.
I bought my Tesla M3P outright, but based on its current value I've not really saved much compared to the lease costs I was being quoted 3 years ago. if I had put the money I used to buy it in to e.g. Tesla stock, well...
But then continuously running a new car, even a fairly basic one, has never been cheap!
On the other hand, for the very same reason, and for some other reasons... a lease is often a lot cheaper even allowing for the future residual value of you 'owned' the car.
One reason leasing is often a lot cheaper is that car manufacturers discount the cars going to lease companies to get them on the road and visible, to balance production rates (production lines run at their most efficient if they're flat out), or simply to rapidly monetise a stock of cars that are not selling (for endless potential reasons) whilst also taking a chunk out of competitors sales.
This is why I was recently offered a Tesla model Y for a little over £300+vat pm on a 9+35 8k pa deal. That's very cheap for a £45k car, about £13k for 3 years of use. If you bought it outright with cash you'd be unlikely to lose less money over the same period.
Musk dropping the price of the cars by large numbers on a whim, the end of quarter pushes that see cars drop another ~£5k or so, etc - it has resulted in a market that is understandably wary of trying to price these things. I've heard of people not getting offers from trade for their cars, as well as people reporting their cars losing £20k in a matter of weeks, etc.
All of that is to say that paying £13k to rent one for 3 years would almost certainly be a better option than buying one outright. That may well not be the case with other marques (logic would dictate that buying outright ought to always be the most cost effective)
ChocolateFrog said:
I mean it feels like M4 money to me but I'll admit I'm the one out of touch.
But how much is the M4 if you take into account the “deposit”? (not sure why it’s called that when it’s just lost)People tend to just look at the monthlies and don’t count the deposit, I think.
ChocolateFrog said:
Borrowed my sisters MG ZS yesterday which I expected to be very similar to my Duster.
They're about as direct a competitor for each other as you can get but the MG felt utterly terrible.
I couldn't wait to drop it off.
I hope MG has evolved in the last 3 years.
A petrol one? Their ICE drivetrains are terrible. They're about as direct a competitor for each other as you can get but the MG felt utterly terrible.
I couldn't wait to drop it off.
I hope MG has evolved in the last 3 years.
Toaster Pilot said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Borrowed my sisters MG ZS yesterday which I expected to be very similar to my Duster.
They're about as direct a competitor for each other as you can get but the MG felt utterly terrible.
I couldn't wait to drop it off.
I hope MG has evolved in the last 3 years.
A petrol one? Their ICE drivetrains are terrible. They're about as direct a competitor for each other as you can get but the MG felt utterly terrible.
I couldn't wait to drop it off.
I hope MG has evolved in the last 3 years.
Durzel said:
TheDeuce said:
kambites said:
Durzel said:
Toaster Pilot said:
Durzel said:
If you amortise the deposit (which no one ever really does) then it's ~£580 a month for the top model, and ~£457 for the lowest one. That seems very good to me?
As always the 0% APR is a fallacy given you can buy one for a healthy discount off list if you’re not taking the finance It’s just a 2 year PCP at that rate too, so either hand it back having kissed goodbye to £14k or pay the £17k final payment.
You're kissing goodbye to £14k either way, either in straight payments or depreciation.
I bought my Tesla M3P outright, but based on its current value I've not really saved much compared to the lease costs I was being quoted 3 years ago. if I had put the money I used to buy it in to e.g. Tesla stock, well...
But then continuously running a new car, even a fairly basic one, has never been cheap!
On the other hand, for the very same reason, and for some other reasons... a lease is often a lot cheaper even allowing for the future residual value of you 'owned' the car.
One reason leasing is often a lot cheaper is that car manufacturers discount the cars going to lease companies to get them on the road and visible, to balance production rates (production lines run at their most efficient if they're flat out), or simply to rapidly monetise a stock of cars that are not selling (for endless potential reasons) whilst also taking a chunk out of competitors sales.
This is why I was recently offered a Tesla model Y for a little over £300+vat pm on a 9+35 8k pa deal. That's very cheap for a £45k car, about £13k for 3 years of use. If you bought it outright with cash you'd be unlikely to lose less money over the same period.
Musk dropping the price of the cars by large numbers on a whim, the end of quarter pushes that see cars drop another ~£5k or so, etc - it has resulted in a market that is understandably wary of trying to price these things. I've heard of people not getting offers from trade for their cars, as well as people reporting their cars losing £20k in a matter of weeks, etc.
All of that is to say that paying £13k to rent one for 3 years would almost certainly be a better option than buying one outright. That may well not be the case with other marques (logic would dictate that buying outright ought to always be the most cost effective)
In the example of the Tesla Y, it is indeed frustrating that after the pandemic increased and sustained prices, the resultant slump has sent prices into free fall - I can fully understand the upset of anyone caught on the wrong side of the price shift. But I think it's fair to say that in a normal, settled market, the Tesla in question would still likely lose more than the cost of lease, based on the example I gave.
£45k car would typically lose more than £13k in it's first three years. This site: https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/car-depr...
Puts it at these figures:
The average car depreciation will hit hardest in the first year of ownership. Generally, the drop will be around 15-35% in the first 12 months. And that will continue to rise up to 50% or more over three years.
Year 1: 15-35% depreciation. 65-85% of the original value.
Year 3: 40-60% depreciation. 40-65% of the original value.
Obviously the weird market and price drop has distorted the above for the last three years, but in general terms I'd assume a new car will lose at least 40% of it's value over a three year period.
gangzoom said:
ChunkyloverSV said:
Would it be quicker/easier/more convenient to do such a journey in a ICE car in 99.99% cases I would always say yes.
I am not saying they are not doable, just that its more difficult in an EV.
So where/when was your last road trip? How long did it take to do? Why couldn't you do it in a MG4 that could can to 60 in under 4 seconds and potentially cost far to refuel> I am not saying they are not doable, just that its more difficult in an EV.
As far as I am aware the only EV estate is the MG5 which has got to be one of the ugliest cars on the road at the moment.
carlo996 said:
Yep. How is starting an ICE and doing 5 miles different to starting an EV?
But obviously, my question would be who is going to take an MG4 for a 'fun' drive anyway
An EV does not need to be started. But obviously, my question would be who is going to take an MG4 for a 'fun' drive anyway
No oil to be warmed up. Just get in and go.
Pretty basic stuff understood by a proper engineer.
For 99.9% of the population a 'Fun Drive' is not fore and centre.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Everything is just easier. EV's require no filling up, unless we're to count the 8 seconds it takes to plug in once a week... They're 'up to temperature' instantly so no waiting for the engine to warm up and provide full power (or heat) when it's cold out, that's especially true compared with diesel. The actual business of driving day to day is easier because the cars are so quick to respond to throttle input - extremely useful when nipping into a small gap on a busy roundabout or simply leaving the lights remarkably swiftly - these are things I really notice when I get back into an ICE car. Speaking of being quick out of the lights, there's also ICE stop/start system delay. On a hot day you can cool the car remotely, on a cold day you can heat it. A few ICE cars have the same ability but most don't or disable it in the UK because it's technically illegal to have the engine running on a public road without the driver being in the car.
Obviously there is also far less mechanical complexity which makes servicing quicker and typically cheaper and less frequent, also with less complexity there is less chance of mechanical failure; gearbox/clutch. Even brakes last a lot longer.
All these little benefits and conveniences add up to a daily car that is extremely easy to live with, stupidly easy to operate and hardly costs anything to run.
ChunkyloverSV said:
Go on I will bite, how are shorter trips easier in an EV?
No warm up, no gears, no noise, more responsive drivetrain, one pedal operation etc.On short trips and around town EV's are in their element and far superior to ICE IME. Whn ours goes that is where I'll really miss it I'm sure.
ChunkyloverSV said:
As far as I am aware the only EV estate is the MG5 which has got to be one of the ugliest cars on the road at the moment.
Hardly all that bad?
carlo996 said:
But obviously, my question would be who is going to take an MG4 for a 'fun' drive anyway
The MG4 in question has 430hp and probably 700-800nm of torque. So the answer would be anyone that likes acceleration for certain. Beyond that, as I keep saying, we have to wait and see how much of a 'proper' hot hatch it really is. Maybe it won't handle well enough and really won't be much fun - aside from 0-60 blasts.I'm optimistic though... I think MG, despite being fully Chinese owned, are taking the input from their London based R&D team very seriously - and with strong results in terms of making the current MG4 range appeal to British/European drivers and as good as similar level cars coming out of Europe itself. Will that understanding of what drivers want extend to making a great hot hatch? Maybe, no reason to assume it won't.
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