Hybrid's - to plug or not to plug

[Phil.]

clockworks said:

Phil. said:

otolith said:

Minimal weight and zero ability to utilise renewably generated electricity.

Zero, really? So the battery has no impact on the improved mpg? I don’t think so.

Assume that was aimed at non-plug-in hybrids.
If you can't plug in, you aren't able to run on "green" electric.

The battery will help to reduce mpg, but all the energy that the car uses comes from petrol. Just that some of it is harvested (regen or whatever) and recycled for assisting the ICE.

A plug-in can do all that, plus actually do some useful work by running some (maybe most) of the time on electricity from renewable sources

Renewable sources is a debate in itself! Otherwise we agree that the small battery and the Toyota hybrid tech maximizes mpg.

Edited by Phil. on Wednesday 19th June 21:40

[Phil.]

otolith said:

Phil. said:

otolith said:

Minimal weight and zero ability to utilise renewably generated electricity.

Zero, really? So the battery has no impact on the improved mpg? I don’t think so.

Zero. Really. The energy the battery stores comes from the petrol the car burns. All of it. The petrol is the only energy going into the system. The hybrid system makes it use the energy more efficiently by reusing the kinetic energy put into the car by the engine which would otherwise be thrown away by the brakes, it doesn’t create any or acquire any from outside the car. Toyota’s dishonest marketing has a lot to answer for.

1. What Toyota marketing is dishonest?

2. What is wrong in maximising the efficiency of petrol energy with battery technology?

Edited by Phil. on Wednesday 19th June 21:38

[blank]

TheDeuce said:

Jimjimhim said:

blank said:

Jimjimhim said:

Presumably an outside 3 pin socket with your cable left plugged in all the time would do for a plug in hybrid?

Yeah, but if you're going to do that for a PHEV you may as well do it with an EV.

If you're charging daily and doing low mileage then (all else being equal) an EV will use less energy than a PHEV.

That depends on if you can find a EV that your prefer over a PHEV.

That's interesting about the energy usage, why is that? Is it much difference?

I don't imagine there can be much difference. If the EV edges it, I'd assume it's because a more powerful motor and larger battery can achieve higher rates if regen.

Also the designers of EV's probably care more about low drag for the sake of optimal range.

There are a few reasons...

PHEVs tend to run the motor through a gearbox, whereas EVs are usually a single reduction gear.
EVs are (as you say) usually designed with more consideration for drag (which is why Teslas look weird).
EVs are also more likely to have low rolling resistance tyres.
EVs will (generally) have more efficient heating systems.


My PHEV typically does about 2.5 miles/kWh and if you really make an effort (e.g. staying below 50mph) it will just about crack 3 miles/kWh.

My wife's EV pretty much won't go below 3 and is probably at least 1-1.5 miles/kWh more efficient for a similar journey and driving style.

And this is a Leon estate vs a Nissan Ariya so the EV is slightly bigger.

[paralla]

TheDeuce said:

Exactly. And if the existing circuit is so close to the front door... Pull it through and add an external socket.

I suspect doing so might just solve the plugging in debate

I left my granny charger plugged in and switched on inside the utility room, the cable was run underneath the utility room door and the plug (with it’s cap on when not in use)was rested on top of a drystone wall about 3 feet from the charge port on the car when it was parked. The car and its App controlled the charging schedule, It was no less convenient than the Type 2 charger I bought because I thought I needed it.

[otolith]

Phil. said:

1. What Toyota marketing is dishonest?

2. What is wrong in maximising the efficiency of petrol energy with battery technology?

Edited by Phil. on Wednesday 19th June 21:38

1. “self charging hybrid” tosh - all hybrids are self charging
2. Nothing, in the context of making a petrol engined car less inefficient. You can recover energy you would have wasted, in some implementations you can optimise the economy of the engine (for instance running an Atkinson cycle engine in the Prius, or running a motor generator at optimum rpm and load in a series hybrid). It also has the great advantage of making the weight of the car less relevant to its efficiency, which is nice for PHEVs. It’s all good. What it doesn’t get away from is that it runs on petrol and emits CO2.

[Phil.]

otolith said:

1. “self charging hybrid” tosh - all hybrids are self charging
2. Nothing, in the context of making a petrol engined car less inefficient. You can recover energy you would have wasted, in some implementations you can optimise the economy of the engine (for instance running an Atkinson cycle engine in the Prius, or running a motor generator at optimum rpm and load in a series hybrid). It also has the great advantage of making the weight of the car less relevant to its efficiency, which is nice for PHEVs. It’s all good. What it doesn’t get away from is that it runs on petrol and emits CO2 .

Ah, so that’s your issue with any non-EV motoring? However, an EV only shifts to CO2 elsewhere it doesn’t disappear. That’s assuming you believe the net zero BS.

As far as current hybrid technology (mild or PHEV) goes, my vote stays with Toyota who I believe are strategically focussing on hybrid development over pure EV’s because to them it’s obvious that mild-hybrids are going to give them the biggest share of the global car market due to their ease of use (no charging limitations) and how economical the cars are. Plus given Toyota’s massive resources and strong leadership I’m sure they will continue to lead the competition on hybrid tech for sometime to come.

[Evanivitch]

Phil. said:

Ah, so that’s your issue with any non-EV motoring? However, an EV only shifts to CO2 elsewhere it doesn’t disappear. That’s assuming you believe the net zero BS.

That's rubbish. EVs over their normal use are net reducers in CO2 emissions by as little as 20,000 miles in current energy mixes. As energy mixes improve (UK switched off coal this year) so does that performance.

The local emissions (PM, NOx) are significantly less from a EV based on renewable and centralised power generation. And they aren't subject to individual vehicles maintenance, modification and neglect to maintain that performance.

I fully accept climate change facts, but also think my own carbon footprint is largely an irrelevance (thoughmy lifestyle and planned expenditurew will reduce it further). My focus is on local harm to environment and communities.

[otolith]

Phil. said:

otolith said:

1. “self charging hybrid” tosh - all hybrids are self charging
2. Nothing, in the context of making a petrol engined car less inefficient. You can recover energy you would have wasted, in some implementations you can optimise the economy of the engine (for instance running an Atkinson cycle engine in the Prius, or running a motor generator at optimum rpm and load in a series hybrid). It also has the great advantage of making the weight of the car less relevant to its efficiency, which is nice for PHEVs. It’s all good. What it doesn’t get away from is that it runs on petrol and emits CO2 .

Ah, so that’s your issue with any non-EV motoring? However, an EV only shifts to CO2 elsewhere it doesn’t disappear. That’s assuming you believe the net zero BS.

As far as current hybrid technology (mild or PHEV) goes, my vote stays with Toyota who I believe are strategically focussing on hybrid development over pure EV’s because to them it’s obvious that mild-hybrids are going to give them the biggest share of the global car market due to their ease of use (no charging limitations) and how economical the cars are. Plus given Toyota’s massive resources and strong leadership I’m sure they will continue to lead the competition on hybrid tech for sometime to come.

That is the entire point of PHEVs, yes. To enable cars to be run, at least part of the time, on electricity generated without emitting CO2. Whether you think that's worth caring about is another matter entirely.

[TheDeuce]

Phil. said:

otolith said:

1. “self charging hybrid” tosh - all hybrids are self charging
2. Nothing, in the context of making a petrol engined car less inefficient. You can recover energy you would have wasted, in some implementations you can optimise the economy of the engine (for instance running an Atkinson cycle engine in the Prius, or running a motor generator at optimum rpm and load in a series hybrid). It also has the great advantage of making the weight of the car less relevant to its efficiency, which is nice for PHEVs. It’s all good. What it doesn’t get away from is that it runs on petrol and emits CO2 .

Ah, so that’s your issue with any non-EV motoring? However, an EV only shifts to CO2 elsewhere it doesn’t disappear. That’s assuming you believe the net zero BS.

As far as current hybrid technology (mild or PHEV) goes, my vote stays with Toyota who I believe are strategically focussing on hybrid development over pure EV’s because to them it’s obvious that mild-hybrids are going to give them the biggest share of the global car market due to their ease of use (no charging limitations) and how economical the cars are. Plus given Toyota’s massive resources and strong leadership I’m sure they will continue to lead the competition on hybrid tech for sometime to come.

Personally I think Toyota have royally shafted themselves by leaving EV commitment far too late, so they're now spouting all sorts of bks about how nobody really needs an EV....

Each to their own though!

[gmaz]

otolith said:

Phil. said:

1. What Toyota marketing is dishonest?

2. What is wrong in maximising the efficiency of petrol energy with battery technology?

Edited by Phil. on Wednesday 19th June 21:38

1. “self charging hybrid” tosh - all hybrids are self charging

By Toyota's definition, my Tesla is a self-charging EV.

[Phil.]

TheDeuce said:

Personally I think Toyota have royally shafted themselves by leaving EV commitment far too late, so they're now spouting all sorts of bks about how nobody really needs an EV....

Each to their own though!

Unlike the success Ford is having focussed almost solely on EV’s?

Toyota are presently the Nigel Farage of car companies in their views but are lead by true car enthusiasts with a heritage of success. Will be interesting to see if they’ve bet on the right direction of power trains in a few years time.

[Phil.]

Evanivitch said:

That's rubbish. EVs over their normal use are net reducers in CO2 emissions by as little as 20,000 miles in current energy mixes. As energy mixes improve (UK switched off coal this year) so does that performance.

The local emissions (PM, NOx) are significantly less from a EV based on renewable and centralised power generation. And they aren't subject to individual vehicles maintenance, modification and neglect to maintain that performance.

I fully accept climate change facts, but also think my own carbon footprint is largely an irrelevance (thoughmy lifestyle and planned expenditurew will reduce it further). My focus is on local harm to environment and communities.

The % carbon footprint of the UK is negligible globally, that’s if you even believe that CO2 is the enemy.

[TheDeuce]

Phil. said:

TheDeuce said:

Personally I think Toyota have royally shafted themselves by leaving EV commitment far too late, so they're now spouting all sorts of bks about how nobody really needs an EV....

Each to their own though!

Unlike the success Ford is having focussed almost solely on EV’s?

Toyota are presently the Nigel Farage of car companies in their views but are lead by true car enthusiasts with a heritage of success. Will be interesting to see if they’ve bet on the right direction of power trains in a few years time.

I don't find predictable results interesting tbh.

They obviously got a great headstart at hybrid cars, and now have a great reputation for them - they're fully motivated argue against impending ICE bans, which they're obviously doing.

But in the end they'll be electric only, as will all their competitors. They'll just be a decade behind the curve.

[plfrench]

TheDeuce said:

Phil. said:

otolith said:

1. “self charging hybrid” tosh - all hybrids are self charging
2. Nothing, in the context of making a petrol engined car less inefficient. You can recover energy you would have wasted, in some implementations you can optimise the economy of the engine (for instance running an Atkinson cycle engine in the Prius, or running a motor generator at optimum rpm and load in a series hybrid). It also has the great advantage of making the weight of the car less relevant to its efficiency, which is nice for PHEVs. It’s all good. What it doesn’t get away from is that it runs on petrol and emits CO2 .

Ah, so that’s your issue with any non-EV motoring? However, an EV only shifts to CO2 elsewhere it doesn’t disappear. That’s assuming you believe the net zero BS.

As far as current hybrid technology (mild or PHEV) goes, my vote stays with Toyota who I believe are strategically focussing on hybrid development over pure EV’s because to them it’s obvious that mild-hybrids are going to give them the biggest share of the global car market due to their ease of use (no charging limitations) and how economical the cars are. Plus given Toyota’s massive resources and strong leadership I’m sure they will continue to lead the competition on hybrid tech for sometime to come.

Personally I think Toyota have royally shafted themselves by leaving EV commitment far too late, so they're now spouting all sorts of bks about how nobody really needs an EV....

Each to their own though!

As witnessed by Toyota's rapidly declining sales in the UK - down 14.6% YTD in a market that is up over 7%. Their lack of EV investment will have secured their exit from the UK market in the next 10 years unless something changes dramatically.

[Jimjimhim]

The more choice the better if you ask me. Hopefully a new tech will come along soon, it does feel like we are waiting for something better than what we're currently getting.

[AlexIT]

plfrench said:

As witnessed by Toyota's rapidly declining sales in the UK - down 14.6% YTD in a market that is up over 7%. Their lack of EV investment will have secured their exit from the UK market in the next 10 years unless something changes dramatically.

I see Toyota at the moment like Nokia or Blackberry when Apple presented the iPhone.
The outcome might be different of course, but in the past many have been sitting on absolute certitudes and failed.

[Evanivitch]

Phil. said:

The % carbon footprint of the UK is negligible globally, that’s if you even believe that CO2 is the enemy.

The UK consumer is not insignificant, as we offshore much of our emissions (I.e. car and battery manufacturing).

But that's besides the point, we still all have local emissions and pollution impacts that we should take responsibility for.

[Phil.]

Evanivitch said:

Phil. said:

The % carbon footprint of the UK is negligible globally, that’s if you even believe that CO2 is the enemy.

The UK consumer is not insignificant, as we offshore much of our emissions (I.e. car and battery manufacturing).

But that's besides the point, we still all have local emissions and pollution impacts that we should take responsibility for.

I find it ironic that you appear comfortable offshoring CO2 emissions to facilitate your use of EV’s in the UK and at the same time are more concerned about local emissions. Surely it’s the global emissions impact that you should be concerned about?

I reiterate that the % carbon footprint of the UK is negligible globally. If you disagree, feel free to provide the UK’s CO2 emissions as a % of global emissions and in comparison to the countries who are emitting many times more the emissions, whilst presently increasing their annual emissions.

Individually in the UK we are so insignificant in our emissions footprint that we are wasting our time changing anything as it will have zero impact globally. Buying EV’s in the UK makes zero difference globally either. That’s if you believe that CO2 is the enemy.

[otolith]

Phil. said:

The % carbon footprint of the UK is negligible globally, that’s if you even believe that CO2 is the enemy.

It's about 1.4% of total, from about 0.8% of the world population. If you subdivide the world population into small enough groups, you can use the same argument that each one only represents a small proportion of the total and hence doesn't need to do anything (i.e. there is a problem with everyone pissing in the swimming pool, but I'm wearing green shorts and only 2% of people are wearing green shorts, so really our pissing is a negligible part of the problem and we should just continue).

Whether it's worthwhile really depends on whether others will do the same, and that comes down to international agreements for countries and internal policies for individuals. "I agree we should fly less, but until everyone else is restricted I'm not denying myself a flight" isn't an entirely unreasonable position, and nor is "I agree with phasing out ICEs, but I'm going to enjoy mine as long as I'm allowed to". If you have done the arithmetic and a PHEV's total cost of ownership is more than a standard hybrid, it's not unreasonable to choose the standard hybrid. From a policy point of view that would be a problem (though I'm not really convinced it's the case) which needs to be dealt with to align people's interests with policy objectives.


Not believing that CO2 is a problem is a whole other bucket of wishful thinking, but there's an entire interminable thread dedicated to that. The people making the policy decisions do believe that it's a problem.

[TheDeuce]

Phil. said:

Evanivitch said:

Phil. said:

The % carbon footprint of the UK is negligible globally, that’s if you even believe that CO2 is the enemy.

The UK consumer is not insignificant, as we offshore much of our emissions (I.e. car and battery manufacturing).

But that's besides the point, we still all have local emissions and pollution impacts that we should take responsibility for.

I find it ironic that you appear comfortable offshoring CO2 emissions to facilitate your use of EV’s in the UK and at the same time are more concerned about local emissions. Surely it’s the global emissions impact that you should be concerned about?

I reiterate that the % carbon footprint of the UK is negligible globally. If you disagree, feel free to provide the UK’s CO2 emissions as a % of global emissions and in comparison to the countries who are emitting many times more the emissions, whilst presently increasing their annual emissions.

Individually in the UK we are so insignificant in our emissions footprint that we are wasting our time changing anything as it will have zero impact globally. Buying EV’s in the UK makes zero difference globally either. That’s if you believe that CO2 is the enemy.

Eh?

The cars we buy, ice or EV are increasingly made on China and for decades have used mostly Chinese components.

The EV does less damage overall, wherever it's built, bought and driven, than the ICE alternative.

EV's are perfectly workable for most drivers now, it makes complete sense to go that route.