A major little word of warning re. EV conversions
Discussion
The fundamental point is a 'radically altered vehicle' needs an IVA.
My fundamental point is that drilled holes in a superfluous part of the boot do not radically modify anything.
I am all for a set of rules to govern electrification and keep folk safe, but an IVA is not the answer when the car is a classic,
New rules are needed, not twisted old rules made to fit a new problem.
I have done what I can to get a set of rules published,
My fundamental point is that drilled holes in a superfluous part of the boot do not radically modify anything.
I am all for a set of rules to govern electrification and keep folk safe, but an IVA is not the answer when the car is a classic,
New rules are needed, not twisted old rules made to fit a new problem.
I have done what I can to get a set of rules published,
bitsilly said:
I know anyone who has read my posts will know this but as the thread is so long, and as the moderators refuse to close this thread so as to allow me to post it on Classic cars, I will repeat a few things.
I have put a car through IVA before. Anyone who wants to argue that I should just get one and accept the q-plate should have a look at the rules or read the article on IVA in this months kit car mag.
I was following all the rules at the time, but they changed during the conversion.
The conversion was designed to be 100% reversible in case I could find a different better way of infuriating bigots.
I really have to try and cut through the chaff here, the DVLA took an immaculate, safe, well engineered car off the road because I drilled a hole or holes in the original battery box in the boot and hence majorly modified the car and they will not allow that hole or holes to be welded up and have refused all appeals. Simples, I'm afraid.
ps thank you for all the supportive mail I have had and the signatures on that which cannot be mentioned. I'm afraid the DVLA have won this one but it may help a few people dodge the landmines in the future.
Over and out.
I'm with you on this, I think they're being overly officous but what can we do?I have put a car through IVA before. Anyone who wants to argue that I should just get one and accept the q-plate should have a look at the rules or read the article on IVA in this months kit car mag.
I was following all the rules at the time, but they changed during the conversion.
The conversion was designed to be 100% reversible in case I could find a different better way of infuriating bigots.
I really have to try and cut through the chaff here, the DVLA took an immaculate, safe, well engineered car off the road because I drilled a hole or holes in the original battery box in the boot and hence majorly modified the car and they will not allow that hole or holes to be welded up and have refused all appeals. Simples, I'm afraid.
ps thank you for all the supportive mail I have had and the signatures on that which cannot be mentioned. I'm afraid the DVLA have won this one but it may help a few people dodge the landmines in the future.
Over and out.
robemcdonald said:
would it be acceptable if a bespoke framework for the electrical gubbins was made that only used existing mounting points?
Theoretically any conversion that makes no changes will be OK.But also theoretically, any conversion that does not have drilled holes is obviously unsafe.
It is up to you if you trust them not to slightly shift the goalposts during your conversion.
If you do not drill safe mounting points into a solid base then the conversion is unsafe.
If you do drill safe mounting points then you have radically modified the chassis (even when you obviously haven't).
Also, as they require these mounting points to be solid and safe without drilling, ensure the glue you use is approved by the Kits and radically modified cars dept.
They know all the rules available to them to obstruct or support this kind of thing but if you can get them on side then he could make all the difference. I'd advise you do this before paying anything out.
My conversion repurposed existing holes and did not by any means have to have those drilled holes as there is the enormous rotisserie hole in the back seat upright and another behind the speedo, but as I have said, we had no idea a drilled hole would attain this sort of importance to a small person sat at a desk with a log on his shoulder.
Edited by bitsilly on Tuesday 15th November 19:33
Moderator edit: no personal details please
Edited by jeremyc on Tuesday 15th November 20:21
Obviously your mistake was in declaring it... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115604772138
Fastdruid said:
Obviously your mistake was in declaring it... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115604772138
WowDVLA say it's taxed .... as an 1100cc petrol!
Interesting article in classics world
https://classicsworld.co.uk/cars/recharged-heritag...
They are obviously ahead of the game as the article states
"From the start, MINI and RHL were adamant that they would make no changes to any Minis converted, not even by drilling a single hole,"
https://classicsworld.co.uk/cars/recharged-heritag...
They are obviously ahead of the game as the article states
"From the start, MINI and RHL were adamant that they would make no changes to any Minis converted, not even by drilling a single hole,"
The ethos behind my electrification was for it to be 100% reversible.
The only information the DVLA were obliged to give me was that they had discovered drilled holes.
They do not have to tell me which holes they are talking about or where they are .
I cannot see how the conversion in the article can be any different, especially if behind closed doors a bureaucrat can point at a hole in a report photo and claim it is new.
They have refused to show me the report, have refused my MP, and are currently arguing with the IC office over it.
They are untouchable and I for one will not believe any hype ever again.
The only information the DVLA were obliged to give me was that they had discovered drilled holes.
They do not have to tell me which holes they are talking about or where they are .
I cannot see how the conversion in the article can be any different, especially if behind closed doors a bureaucrat can point at a hole in a report photo and claim it is new.
They have refused to show me the report, have refused my MP, and are currently arguing with the IC office over it.
They are untouchable and I for one will not believe any hype ever again.
OutInTheShed said:
I think the holes and the points system are a bit of distraction.
The fundamental point is a 'radically altered vehicle' needs an IVA.
Turning an old mini into an EV is radical alteration.
Not really much question about that.
Does the points system actually define the law or is it just a guide to where to draw the 'radical' line for the typical mods old vehicles are expected to accumulate?
In general, I don't think it's wrong that radically altered vehicles need an IVA to go on the road.
It's all very well lauding people who do radical stuff and maybe risk their own skin, but there's a limit to what we want to share the public roads with or see sold to punters.
I'd argue that unless the weight distribution and power to weight ratio have changed significantly(say more than 10%) an EV conversion is not a radical alteration, certainly where the bodyshell is not materially altered. The idea that vast numbers of people are going to convert crappy old wrecks into dangerous EVs with exploding batteries and scrap Tesla motors is farcical.The fundamental point is a 'radically altered vehicle' needs an IVA.
Turning an old mini into an EV is radical alteration.
Not really much question about that.
Does the points system actually define the law or is it just a guide to where to draw the 'radical' line for the typical mods old vehicles are expected to accumulate?
In general, I don't think it's wrong that radically altered vehicles need an IVA to go on the road.
It's all very well lauding people who do radical stuff and maybe risk their own skin, but there's a limit to what we want to share the public roads with or see sold to punters.
Edited by hidetheelephants on Monday 19th December 21:29
Moderator edit: no canvassing for petitions
fooman said:
Buy another mini and transfer the electric components avoiding any chassis mods. Sell the left over parts and shell. Big faff I know but might be a way forward.
I suspect the only reason the DVLA knew about the holes was the OP making the mistake of being to honest and telling them.In which case, I’d be buying another car, swapping the VIN over and not telling them about the holes and scrap the other one.
I think Bitsilly, the OP, has exhausted every opportunity to get his conversion certified and on the road.
There have been many suggestions in this thread, that he seems to have covered.
That is the problem when you have to try and contend with an unaccountable, uncontactable, uncommunicative and unreasonable closed shop of stupid militant petty awkwardness.
Every time this thread pops up on "My Stuff" I feel gutted for the OP.
There have been many suggestions in this thread, that he seems to have covered.
That is the problem when you have to try and contend with an unaccountable, uncontactable, uncommunicative and unreasonable closed shop of stupid militant petty awkwardness.
Every time this thread pops up on "My Stuff" I feel gutted for the OP.
What a frustrating story.
Have you tried going up the chain in the DVLA? At the top say? Or head of the IVA department at some level?
I really can't see the holes you mention being material.
I can I suppose some some issues with crash/crumple zone changes from some of the great big solid battery packs that are being fitted to some of these conversions - that "official" mini conversion linked above looks as the all the space from bumper to windscreen has much more limited crumple ability as the batteries will be solid - though it is debatable how good an original mini was anyway, and when you drive an original T2 VW they are still allowed on the road but their front end crumple zone is effectively non-existent. There is always an element of increased risk driving in an older car with no ABS, airbags and the like.
What is the wisdom now - avoid classic EV conversions until this is clearer up? Is it really possible to legally register a classic EV without an IVA? The conversion companies aren't spending £6k on an R.100 test on every bespoke conversion are they?
I was thinking of converting mine but this has certainly made me have second thoughts. Thanks for sharing your experience - you might save others your pain at least!
Have you tried going up the chain in the DVLA? At the top say? Or head of the IVA department at some level?
I really can't see the holes you mention being material.
I can I suppose some some issues with crash/crumple zone changes from some of the great big solid battery packs that are being fitted to some of these conversions - that "official" mini conversion linked above looks as the all the space from bumper to windscreen has much more limited crumple ability as the batteries will be solid - though it is debatable how good an original mini was anyway, and when you drive an original T2 VW they are still allowed on the road but their front end crumple zone is effectively non-existent. There is always an element of increased risk driving in an older car with no ABS, airbags and the like.
What is the wisdom now - avoid classic EV conversions until this is clearer up? Is it really possible to legally register a classic EV without an IVA? The conversion companies aren't spending £6k on an R.100 test on every bespoke conversion are they?
I was thinking of converting mine but this has certainly made me have second thoughts. Thanks for sharing your experience - you might save others your pain at least!
bitsilly said:
walamai said:
OP, what was it that 'triggered' the inspection in the first place? I'm just embarking on a conversion myself, so this is really relevant to me.
My understanding was that if you do an engine swap (including to electric), that you just notify DVLA of the change and move on with your life. (Which I assumed is what all the conversion shops & youtuber's are doing.)
If however you do something which triggers the Radically Altered Vehicles points thing, then you would need to get an IVA inspection.
In your case it seems that somebody/something has decided that you've fallen foul of the "5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame" - just because of a handful of holes.
I'm curious what the somebody/something was in your case?
Out of interest also, why don't you think you could get the car through an IVA? I'm aware of the IVA requirement under 'Electrical Safety' to have "A test report to ECE R100.01". (I've enquired about that test cert, spoke to https://www.horiba-mira.com/ and they advised they can produce it for around £6.5k.)
Is that your issue, or something else?
An inspection was flagged as I could not specify the electric motors capacity in cc's.My understanding was that if you do an engine swap (including to electric), that you just notify DVLA of the change and move on with your life. (Which I assumed is what all the conversion shops & youtuber's are doing.)
If however you do something which triggers the Radically Altered Vehicles points thing, then you would need to get an IVA inspection.
In your case it seems that somebody/something has decided that you've fallen foul of the "5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame" - just because of a handful of holes.
I'm curious what the somebody/something was in your case?
Out of interest also, why don't you think you could get the car through an IVA? I'm aware of the IVA requirement under 'Electrical Safety' to have "A test report to ECE R100.01". (I've enquired about that test cert, spoke to https://www.horiba-mira.com/ and they advised they can produce it for around £6.5k.)
Is that your issue, or something else?
When we started the conversion we were of the same understanding.
As we couldn't say how many cc's the motor had, it was passed to the Kit cars dept. They didi their totting up and said because I drilled holes in the boot I had majorly modified the monocoque and so although I had max points in all areas (except the engine change -1) the holes too the monocoque from 5 to zero, so it failed.
And finally, to get a mk1 Mini through IVA, I would need to remove the external weld seams, the external hinges, the window catches the bumpers and so on, in a way mainstream manufacturers would. And that is only the projections rule, there are many others. The guy who did the conversion with me worked for Ford developing the electric Transit van for them, and made it super safe.
jason61c said:
you'd just fix cover trim on the seams for the test, same for the other bits, same as anyone who has taken a kit car etc through IVA.
That doesn't help him with having lost the car's original identity, aside from the fact that he shouldn't need to.I'm really not seeing anything about this situation that indicates anything other than overzealous misapplication of poorly defined rules. It all seems very poor.
InitialDave said:
That doesn't help him with having lost the car's original identity, aside from the fact that he shouldn't need to.
I'm really not seeing anything about this situation that indicates anything other than overzealous misapplication of poorly defined rules. It all seems very poor.
You change an old mini to electric, you've totally lost it's identity anyway.I'm really not seeing anything about this situation that indicates anything other than overzealous misapplication of poorly defined rules. It all seems very poor.
The fact that you can completely re-engineer a car and claim its original identity is the real problem.
I'm all in favour of modifying cars and DIY etc, but in my view it's entirely reasonable that a car with a whole new powertrain needs an IVA.
The fact that some people get around that by not drilling any holes doesn't make it right.
This car was supposed done by a professional engineer?
An actual professional would have designed something to operate in its real world regulatory framework.
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