Hybrid's - to plug or not to plug
Discussion
Partner wants a new car in the new year but is really against the idea of EV. Tried my best to convince her but not happening. So she is wanting a hybrid. Now there's plenty of choices out there of all sorts so finding something she likes isn't difficult. It'll have the benefits obviously of just get up and go in the times she needs.
I'm wanting to know the benefits of the plug-in over the other type of hybrid (no plug). Does anyone really run these apart from taxi drivers? Do the batteries actually last? How does the battery work with both these or is it model specific? I'm at a total loss with hybrids.
I'm wanting to know the benefits of the plug-in over the other type of hybrid (no plug). Does anyone really run these apart from taxi drivers? Do the batteries actually last? How does the battery work with both these or is it model specific? I'm at a total loss with hybrids.
Plug in hybrids are like EV's with smaller batteries when charged, could be a good option as a halfway towards an EV.
If she plugs it in overnight and is only doing say 30 miles a day it will be on cheap electricity with no fuel burned. Just like a normal full EV
If she forgets, or doesn't want to, it's no problem as the car drives like a normal hybrid when the battery is flat.
They are more expensive than normal hybrids though.
I've heard of people with the Prius plug in going 6+ months without using any fuel. However, they would have likely been better off with a full EV instead as they have proved they don't need a big range.
If she plugs it in overnight and is only doing say 30 miles a day it will be on cheap electricity with no fuel burned. Just like a normal full EV
If she forgets, or doesn't want to, it's no problem as the car drives like a normal hybrid when the battery is flat.
They are more expensive than normal hybrids though.
I've heard of people with the Prius plug in going 6+ months without using any fuel. However, they would have likely been better off with a full EV instead as they have proved they don't need a big range.
Oh she'll forget for sure. With her working at home all day, the tariff we are on is probably better than an EV one. Her issue with just EV is that she'll forget, then not able to charge up enough.
With the Plug-in hybrids then, do they just solely run on EV and you press a button then it activates the engine? Or is it once it reaches a certain RPM and speed?
With the Plug-in hybrids then, do they just solely run on EV and you press a button then it activates the engine? Or is it once it reaches a certain RPM and speed?
Depends a lot on big/small and price range of car IMHO.
Also how you weigh things up will vary on your journey mix.
My mate who has had PHEVs for over five years now, reckons the need for hybrids is much reduced due to more chargers and cheaper long range BEVs.
OTOH, many smal/medium non-plug hybrids are very good on fuel so the savings of plugging anything in are not always huge.
If you're not eligible for EV tax breaks it's a mixed bag.
Best to pick some models and do the sums for total cost if that's what drives you.
If you're looking at used cars, it's different but equally messy.
At the end of the day, few people are going for abslute cheapest, most will pay more for something they prefer in one way or another.
Also how you weigh things up will vary on your journey mix.
My mate who has had PHEVs for over five years now, reckons the need for hybrids is much reduced due to more chargers and cheaper long range BEVs.
OTOH, many smal/medium non-plug hybrids are very good on fuel so the savings of plugging anything in are not always huge.
If you're not eligible for EV tax breaks it's a mixed bag.
Best to pick some models and do the sums for total cost if that's what drives you.
If you're looking at used cars, it's different but equally messy.
At the end of the day, few people are going for abslute cheapest, most will pay more for something they prefer in one way or another.
OutInTheShed said:
Depends a lot on big/small and price range of car IMHO.
Also how you weigh things up will vary on your journey mix.
My mate who has had PHEVs for over five years now, reckons the need for hybrids is much reduced due to more chargers and cheaper long range BEVs.
OTOH, many smal/medium non-plug hybrids are very good on fuel so the savings of plugging anything in are not always huge.
If you're not eligible for EV tax breaks it's a mixed bag.
Best to pick some models and do the sums for total cost if that's what drives you.
If you're looking at used cars, it's different but equally messy.
At the end of the day, few people are going for abslute cheapest, most will pay more for something they prefer in one way or another.
She doesn't need a huge range hence why EV would fit but she's really against it. Plus would mean that if needed, she could do a large distance like an ICE without a worry really. Also how you weigh things up will vary on your journey mix.
My mate who has had PHEVs for over five years now, reckons the need for hybrids is much reduced due to more chargers and cheaper long range BEVs.
OTOH, many smal/medium non-plug hybrids are very good on fuel so the savings of plugging anything in are not always huge.
If you're not eligible for EV tax breaks it's a mixed bag.
Best to pick some models and do the sums for total cost if that's what drives you.
If you're looking at used cars, it's different but equally messy.
At the end of the day, few people are going for abslute cheapest, most will pay more for something they prefer in one way or another.
She's after an SUV or something. Not something huge so like a Mini Countryman or something similar. She's also OK with a normal hatchback so there's plenty of options.
I'm more than comfortable for her to be able to plug in the car for a couple of hours during the day as she'll be at home working so 3pin charger would be perfect. Best of both worlds really.
Ankh87 said:
With the Plug-in hybrids then, do they just solely run on EV and you press a button then it activates the engine? Or is it once it reaches a certain RPM and speed?
I'd wondered about the wear on a cold engine that's suddenly started up and delivering high power, but haven't heard any issues about this so they must have things worked out.
Ankh87 said:
Best of both worlds really.
My personal view is that PHEVs are in fact the worst of both worlds.Mrs Caziques wasn't that impressed when I bought her an early Leaf (ex Japan, imported to NZ). She could never get over the range anxiety (70 miles at best) - loved the low running costs and zero maintenance.
We bought a 50kW MGZSEV about eighteen months ago, 200 mile range - range anxiety gone.
Mrs Caziques use the MG, I use an eNV200, son uses Leaf, daughter has an Ioniq in Oz (and electric scooter). Other son is using the MG whilst Mrs C and I tour Europe - i suspect he may purchase something like an MG4 to replace his Golf GTi.
A PHEV is like an expensive comfort blanket for a lot of people - and the petrol consumption tends to to be high.
caziques said:
My personal view is that PHEVs are in fact the worst of both worlds.
Mrs Caziques wasn't that impressed when I bought her an early Leaf (ex Japan, imported to NZ). She could never get over the range anxiety (70 miles at best) - loved the low running costs and zero maintenance.
We bought a 50kW MGZSEV about eighteen months ago, 200 mile range - range anxiety gone.
Mrs Caziques use the MG, I use an eNV200, son uses Leaf, daughter has an Ioniq in Oz (and electric scooter). Other son is using the MG whilst Mrs C and I tour Europe - i suspect he may purchase something like an MG4 to replace his Golf GTi.
A PHEV is like an expensive comfort blanket for a lot of people - and the petrol consumption tends to to be high.
Have you owned one and had actual experience?Mrs Caziques wasn't that impressed when I bought her an early Leaf (ex Japan, imported to NZ). She could never get over the range anxiety (70 miles at best) - loved the low running costs and zero maintenance.
We bought a 50kW MGZSEV about eighteen months ago, 200 mile range - range anxiety gone.
Mrs Caziques use the MG, I use an eNV200, son uses Leaf, daughter has an Ioniq in Oz (and electric scooter). Other son is using the MG whilst Mrs C and I tour Europe - i suspect he may purchase something like an MG4 to replace his Golf GTi.
A PHEV is like an expensive comfort blanket for a lot of people - and the petrol consumption tends to to be high.
OP, a PHEV can work very well if your usage profile fits. You just need to make sure it does. I had a Golf GTE PHEV for 100k miles over 4 years and loved it. It only went because I changed jobs and WFH full time now. Local trips on the school run, shopping, gym, pub etc on EV then run it in hybrid mode for longer trips.
Yeah her usage is really random. Some weeks with her working from home and no call outs, it's basically the school run and maybe a trip to local shop.
Other weeks its that, plus the odd evening call out and maybe a trip into town or to see friends. If we got around 30 miles on EV mode then in theory she'd hardly use any petrol.
I'm assuming with non plug-in then the same applies. It uses EV mode until either you run out of charge or you need more power? Or is it different with those style cars, do they just say use the battery for a handful of miles or up to say 20mph?
Other weeks its that, plus the odd evening call out and maybe a trip into town or to see friends. If we got around 30 miles on EV mode then in theory she'd hardly use any petrol.
I'm assuming with non plug-in then the same applies. It uses EV mode until either you run out of charge or you need more power? Or is it different with those style cars, do they just say use the battery for a handful of miles or up to say 20mph?
MrBig said:
caziques said:
My personal view is that PHEVs are in fact the worst of both worlds.
Mrs Caziques wasn't that impressed when I bought her an early Leaf (ex Japan, imported to NZ). She could never get over the range anxiety (70 miles at best) - loved the low running costs and zero maintenance.
We bought a 50kW MGZSEV about eighteen months ago, 200 mile range - range anxiety gone.
Mrs Caziques use the MG, I use an eNV200, son uses Leaf, daughter has an Ioniq in Oz (and electric scooter). Other son is using the MG whilst Mrs C and I tour Europe - i suspect he may purchase something like an MG4 to replace his Golf GTi.
A PHEV is like an expensive comfort blanket for a lot of people - and the petrol consumption tends to to be high.
Have you owned one and had actual experience?Mrs Caziques wasn't that impressed when I bought her an early Leaf (ex Japan, imported to NZ). She could never get over the range anxiety (70 miles at best) - loved the low running costs and zero maintenance.
We bought a 50kW MGZSEV about eighteen months ago, 200 mile range - range anxiety gone.
Mrs Caziques use the MG, I use an eNV200, son uses Leaf, daughter has an Ioniq in Oz (and electric scooter). Other son is using the MG whilst Mrs C and I tour Europe - i suspect he may purchase something like an MG4 to replace his Golf GTi.
A PHEV is like an expensive comfort blanket for a lot of people - and the petrol consumption tends to to be high.
OP, a PHEV can work very well if your usage profile fits. You just need to make sure it does. I had a Golf GTE PHEV for 100k miles over 4 years and loved it. It only went because I changed jobs and WFH full time now. Local trips on the school run, shopping, gym, pub etc on EV then run it in hybrid mode for longer trips.
40 miles ev in summer / 30 in winter
Batteries 8 year guarantee, 75% & 8 years I recall. Maybe wrong.
Charged nightly & 8p kwh so basically free
90% of usage is pure Ev
Put petrol in it few times since she bought it last September
I’m going full Ev soon (Polestar 2 incoming) no interest in public charging / gouging
So the Phev will cover the very long journeys as reqd.
The best of both worlds for us.
PHEVs are great with the right usage pattern.
They have come on a lot over the years though, so newer ones have much bigger batteries and better range.
E.g. the first gen Golf GTE does maybe 10-15 miles but the latest gen VAG PHEVs are over 40.
They're also not all equal in terms of running purely EV. The VAG stuff can run for ages without using the engine and it's easy to stay in EV mode.
I think some of the Kia and Hyundai models will run the engine to get more cabin heating for instance.
You HAVE to plug it in to get the most out of it though. If you can't plug in easily at home/work/both for a decent rate then it's not worth it.
They have come on a lot over the years though, so newer ones have much bigger batteries and better range.
E.g. the first gen Golf GTE does maybe 10-15 miles but the latest gen VAG PHEVs are over 40.
They're also not all equal in terms of running purely EV. The VAG stuff can run for ages without using the engine and it's easy to stay in EV mode.
I think some of the Kia and Hyundai models will run the engine to get more cabin heating for instance.
You HAVE to plug it in to get the most out of it though. If you can't plug in easily at home/work/both for a decent rate then it's not worth it.
I visited a female friend of my wife’s recently. She has a new mild-hybrid Yaris. Nothing to plug-in. She’s averaged 60mpg over the first 5,000 miles. She drove us around and I was impressed by how the tech constantly changed from running on electric to running on the engine and charging the battery. I think Toyota are pretty ahead in this area.
I own several mild-hybrids that are less technically advanced than the Toyota but the extra (small) battery does improve performance and mpg. I’ve had 50mpg from my D350 diesel Range Rover and 40mpg+ is the norm on a run.
As for plug-in hybrids, you are carrying big heavy batteries around all the time and end up with a small inefficient engine when they run out. It’s the worst of both options as mentioned above.
Go for a mild-hybrid and your wife will love it, hassle free motoring
I own several mild-hybrids that are less technically advanced than the Toyota but the extra (small) battery does improve performance and mpg. I’ve had 50mpg from my D350 diesel Range Rover and 40mpg+ is the norm on a run.
As for plug-in hybrids, you are carrying big heavy batteries around all the time and end up with a small inefficient engine when they run out. It’s the worst of both options as mentioned above.
Go for a mild-hybrid and your wife will love it, hassle free motoring
Phil. said:
I visited a female friend of my wife’s recently. She has a new mild-hybrid Yaris. Nothing to plug-in. She’s averaged 60mpg over the first 5,000 miles. She drove us around and I was impressed by how the tech constantly changed from running on electric to running on the engine and charging the battery. I think Toyota are pretty ahead in this area.
I own several mild-hybrids that are less technically advanced than the Toyota but the extra (small) battery does improve performance and mpg. I’ve had 50mpg from my D350 diesel Range Rover and 40mpg+ is the norm on a run.
As for plug-in hybrids, you are carrying big heavy batteries around all the time and end up with a small inefficient engine when they run out. It’s the worst of both options as mentioned above.
Go for a mild-hybrid and your wife will love it, hassle free motoring
Sounds like your friend has a full hybrid not a mild hybrid, a mild hybrid doesn't propel the car using an electric motor.I own several mild-hybrids that are less technically advanced than the Toyota but the extra (small) battery does improve performance and mpg. I’ve had 50mpg from my D350 diesel Range Rover and 40mpg+ is the norm on a run.
As for plug-in hybrids, you are carrying big heavy batteries around all the time and end up with a small inefficient engine when they run out. It’s the worst of both options as mentioned above.
Go for a mild-hybrid and your wife will love it, hassle free motoring
The Clio has a similar set up to the Yaris.
As said, some PHEVs are better than others - I had a mk7 Golf GTE for a couple of years and it was really quite good at being a short-range EV, including pre-heating in the winter and running around with the heating on but engine off.
The key though is plugging it in. If you're not going to habitually open the flap and plug the lead in every time you get home then it's not great. If there's any extra faff to that (like opening the garage and plugging in the other end of a granny charger) it might get too tedious to bother with.
Moving to a BEV (egolf then Leaf) had two big advantages - plugging in once just a week or so when it got low or had a big journey, and the nicer driving experience of a beefier direct-drive motor that isn't running through a DSG gearbox.
Realistically if you won't plug in religiously then a non-plugin will be better. Heard good things about the Qashqai e-Power, that powertrain has sold massively in Japan in the Note and other models and it drives much more like an EV (including epedal one-pedal-driving) than many others. It's a series hybrid so the engine is just generating power for the wheels rather than mixing power (parallel hybrid) like the Toyota ones.
The key though is plugging it in. If you're not going to habitually open the flap and plug the lead in every time you get home then it's not great. If there's any extra faff to that (like opening the garage and plugging in the other end of a granny charger) it might get too tedious to bother with.
Moving to a BEV (egolf then Leaf) had two big advantages - plugging in once just a week or so when it got low or had a big journey, and the nicer driving experience of a beefier direct-drive motor that isn't running through a DSG gearbox.
Realistically if you won't plug in religiously then a non-plugin will be better. Heard good things about the Qashqai e-Power, that powertrain has sold massively in Japan in the Note and other models and it drives much more like an EV (including epedal one-pedal-driving) than many others. It's a series hybrid so the engine is just generating power for the wheels rather than mixing power (parallel hybrid) like the Toyota ones.
Have you actually done the sums? Cost of the cars vs her mileage? Stating the obvious, hybrid versions of a car cost more, the PHEV version, more again.
I do less than 5k miles a year and got a pure petrol car. The sums didn't add up.
Do a spreadsheet, the cost per year of the different options with her use case.
I do less than 5k miles a year and got a pure petrol car. The sums didn't add up.
Do a spreadsheet, the cost per year of the different options with her use case.
Edited by wyson on Monday 17th June 21:14
HTP99 said:
Sounds like your friend has a full hybrid not a mild hybrid, a mild hybrid doesn't propel the car using an electric motor.
The Clio has a similar set up to the Yaris.
Thanks for the clarification. In which case I suggest full-hybrid is a massive step ahead of plugin hybrid. This is the way forward The Clio has a similar set up to the Yaris.
wyson said:
Have you actually done the sums? Cost of the cars vs her mileage? Stating the obvious, hybrid versions of a car cost more, the PHEV version, more again.
I do less than 5k miles a year and got a pure petrol car. The sums didn't add up.
Do a spreadsheet, the cost per year of the different options with her use case.
Current bill is around £40 a month for petrol. Some months it's a little more than £40 a month maybe £60 but otherwise it's £40.I do less than 5k miles a year and got a pure petrol car. The sums didn't add up.
Do a spreadsheet, the cost per year of the different options with her use case.
Edited by wyson on Monday 17th June 21:14
So if she got an EV obviously would be cheaper but that boasts sailed for her. She wants a hybrid as it'll use the battery more for her journeys especially on the school run which isn't that far around 2 miles along 30mph roads.
So we are both thinking that it'll practically use the battery until it uses up the battery or if she needs the power.
We just bought a PHEV Volvo a couple of months/1600 miles ago.
Even with a usage profile that fits pretty well, I think we're realising that on pure economics, a full EV would have been much better. The one use case, that we do need, albeit rarely, that does not suit EVs is towing.
Ours is averaging 135mpg equivalent at the moment. But to get there it's not always possible to just charge at low rate electricity. Which from a cost perspective starts to eat into any savings.
On the EV front, you simply get used to plugging it in.
EVs are so good at the moment that if you have charging at home, don't need to tow and can find one that fits what you need in terms of just being a car, they're the best choice by far (IMO).
Even with a usage profile that fits pretty well, I think we're realising that on pure economics, a full EV would have been much better. The one use case, that we do need, albeit rarely, that does not suit EVs is towing.
Ours is averaging 135mpg equivalent at the moment. But to get there it's not always possible to just charge at low rate electricity. Which from a cost perspective starts to eat into any savings.
On the EV front, you simply get used to plugging it in.
EVs are so good at the moment that if you have charging at home, don't need to tow and can find one that fits what you need in terms of just being a car, they're the best choice by far (IMO).
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