Engine renovation intervals?
Discussion
Asked same Q at McLaren life, but respons might be better on PH.
Since M838T is a modified race engine it might be prone to shorter cycles between renovation? As I see it 100000 Km seems to be a sweet spot where prices drops radically on used cars. Is it common that this engines needs renovation with shorter intervals than fx a daily like Volvo etc? With repair prices it’s a ticking bomb if something goes south.
I have seen some horror vids om YT where Reperformance do renovation.. Horror in the sense of upcomung costs...
So, its 100k km the mileage where renovation seems to be mandatory?
Since M838T is a modified race engine it might be prone to shorter cycles between renovation? As I see it 100000 Km seems to be a sweet spot where prices drops radically on used cars. Is it common that this engines needs renovation with shorter intervals than fx a daily like Volvo etc? With repair prices it’s a ticking bomb if something goes south.
I have seen some horror vids om YT where Reperformance do renovation.. Horror in the sense of upcomung costs...
So, its 100k km the mileage where renovation seems to be mandatory?
MclaesLaren said:
Asked same Q at McLaren life, but respons might be better on PH.
Since M838T is a modified race engine it might be prone to shorter cycles between renovation? As I see it 100000 Km seems to be a sweet spot where prices drops radically on used cars. Is it common that this engines needs renovation with shorter intervals than fx a daily like Volvo etc? With repair prices it’s a ticking bomb if something goes south.
I have seen some horror vids om YT where Reperformance do renovation.. Horror in the sense of upcomung costs...
So, its 100k km the mileage where renovation seems to be mandatory?
It originated as an endurance racing block for Nissan, TWR used it, Ricardo refreshed it and brought it to 2011 emissions standards and road car service intervals for McLaren, McLaren tested it as few others would at the North Pole, in the Middle East, and round the Nurburgring.Since M838T is a modified race engine it might be prone to shorter cycles between renovation? As I see it 100000 Km seems to be a sweet spot where prices drops radically on used cars. Is it common that this engines needs renovation with shorter intervals than fx a daily like Volvo etc? With repair prices it’s a ticking bomb if something goes south.
I have seen some horror vids om YT where Reperformance do renovation.. Horror in the sense of upcomung costs...
So, its 100k km the mileage where renovation seems to be mandatory?
Has any engine got a stronger pedigree?
If a M838 or any engine is abused, of course it will fail. The one putting flames out the exhaust by the kerbside in Knightsbridge on YT probably will be a problem down the line. The ones run low on Oil - ditto.
Finally, its strangely fashionable, to hype negativity, and trash the McLaren brand.
650S said:
It originated as an endurance racing block for Nissan, TWR used it, Ricardo refreshed it and brought it to 2011 emissions standards and road car service intervals for McLaren, McLaren tested it as few others would at the North Pole, in the Middle East, and round the Nurburgring.
Has any engine got a stronger pedigree?
If a M838 or any engine is abused, of course it will fail. The one putting flames out the exhaust by the kerbside in Knightsbridge on YT probably will be a problem down the line. The ones run low on Oil - ditto.
Finally, its strangely fashionable, to hype negativity, and trash the McLaren brand.
Well, it’s not in any negative way I am asking. Since it’s a race engine from the start and as such with smaller tolerances, I would not expect same lifespan as fx a BMW diesel engine. So, the Q was if some owners had experienced repairs / renovations at certain mileage, like 100k kms or thereabouts. Has any engine got a stronger pedigree?
If a M838 or any engine is abused, of course it will fail. The one putting flames out the exhaust by the kerbside in Knightsbridge on YT probably will be a problem down the line. The ones run low on Oil - ditto.
Finally, its strangely fashionable, to hype negativity, and trash the McLaren brand.
I would ask John Thorney or V Engineering ... they are looking after the older cars.
The old Porsche Mezger engine is also based on a racing design ... the early MA1 GT3 engines caused a lot more trouble and there are stories of very high mileages on early Mezger engined GT3's ...
MA1 info here if interested ... I've not heard of any McLaren engine issues ... but possible due to lower mileages ?
https://drives.today/posts/118/tech/991-1-gt3-engi...
P.S. Contrary to popular opinion even the latest G6 engines in the 991.1 GT3RS and 991R did have a few issues with their hydraulic cam followers (possibly due to old oil or over-revving) hence for the 991.2 onwards solid valve lifters were used, problems finally solved. The extended warranty was to 120,000 miles ... now 125,000 miles on the latest GT3's.
The old Porsche Mezger engine is also based on a racing design ... the early MA1 GT3 engines caused a lot more trouble and there are stories of very high mileages on early Mezger engined GT3's ...
MA1 info here if interested ... I've not heard of any McLaren engine issues ... but possible due to lower mileages ?
https://drives.today/posts/118/tech/991-1-gt3-engi...
P.S. Contrary to popular opinion even the latest G6 engines in the 991.1 GT3RS and 991R did have a few issues with their hydraulic cam followers (possibly due to old oil or over-revving) hence for the 991.2 onwards solid valve lifters were used, problems finally solved. The extended warranty was to 120,000 miles ... now 125,000 miles on the latest GT3's.
Edited by ChrisW. on Wednesday 12th February 12:17
650S said:
McLaren tested it as few others would at the North Pole, in the Middle East, and round the Nurburgring.
Has any engine got a stronger pedigree?
If a M838 or any engine is abused, of course it will fail. The one putting flames out the exhaust by the kerbside in Knightsbridge on YT probably will be a problem down the line. The ones run low on Oil - ditto.
Finally, its strangely fashionable, to hype negativity, and trash the McLaren brand.
^^^^ This.Has any engine got a stronger pedigree?
If a M838 or any engine is abused, of course it will fail. The one putting flames out the exhaust by the kerbside in Knightsbridge on YT probably will be a problem down the line. The ones run low on Oil - ditto.
Finally, its strangely fashionable, to hype negativity, and trash the McLaren brand.
I did a fair bit of research before buying the 650S, including some discussions with V engineering who know these cars about as well as anyone and deal with a lot of the higher mileage examples. Never came across anything about 100k km / 60k miles being in any way special, or any indication that the engines cannot last past this point.
I think the drop in prices you have noticed at this point is more just the market having a poor view on any high mileage supercars.
Unless you are talking about the American market where, if the owners forums are anything to go by, people just cannot seem to leave their cars alone. US owners appear obsessed with always trying to get more power from an engine than the manufacturer intended. Curiously a lot of the stories I hear of McLaren engines going pop seem to come from across the pond as well, but that might just be my impression.
I think the drop in prices you have noticed at this point is more just the market having a poor view on any high mileage supercars.
Unless you are talking about the American market where, if the owners forums are anything to go by, people just cannot seem to leave their cars alone. US owners appear obsessed with always trying to get more power from an engine than the manufacturer intended. Curiously a lot of the stories I hear of McLaren engines going pop seem to come from across the pond as well, but that might just be my impression.
murphyaj said:
Unless you are talking about the American market where, if the owners forums are anything to go by, people just cannot seem to leave their cars alone. US owners appear obsessed with always trying to get more power from an engine than the manufacturer intended.
It's something I've always found completely bizarre about America.They're not shy about litigation, so you'd assume that messing about with your car was inviting trouble if you had an accident. But it doesn't seem to make any difference.
Fitted a jet engine and brakes from a Raleigh Chopper to your Hyundai? No worries - your insurance allows that........
Funny really, I'm surprised there is such a stigma modifying cars in the UK, a nice set of forged alloys, a decent wrap for example makes your car unique rather than like every other example. Even something like a liberty walk kit, whilst that wouldn't be my taste, why not, if it makes them happy.
I certainly wouldn't bother with a tune though, but sure that's just pub bragging rights.
I certainly wouldn't bother with a tune though, but sure that's just pub bragging rights.
As an American transplant living in the UK (and a Joni M fan) I see things from Both Sides Now.
US culture is very much about independent thinking, freedom to do as you please, go your own way - which to me borders on selfishness. Does lead to innovation, but very bad for repetitive manufacturing.
UK (and certainly Northern Europe where I previously was) there is a much higher priority on conformity and societal achievement above self (though I see that changing). Somehow that leads to the term “chav” for shiny car mods.
Personally, to do see purity in original designs perhaps to an excess. After all, aren’t LT versions shiny mods for a car that will never will be used to the point where the aero helps?
US culture is very much about independent thinking, freedom to do as you please, go your own way - which to me borders on selfishness. Does lead to innovation, but very bad for repetitive manufacturing.
UK (and certainly Northern Europe where I previously was) there is a much higher priority on conformity and societal achievement above self (though I see that changing). Somehow that leads to the term “chav” for shiny car mods.
Personally, to do see purity in original designs perhaps to an excess. After all, aren’t LT versions shiny mods for a car that will never will be used to the point where the aero helps?
When we talk about mods I think it's really it can mean two very different things.
On one hand you have cosmetic modifications, like wraps, aftermarket fixed wings, alloys, etc. They are definitely looked down upon in this country, most owners see them as cheap and tacky, even though a lot of the time they are very expensive. There was a period in the late 90s when it was fairly popular for cheaper cars to be modified, in the Max Power era, but even that has passed. You do still see it from time to time on a modern supercar, but they are usually pretty light changes. Personally I used to hate the modified look, but now I just don't really care, it's the owners car and if they want to do that it's not really different than redecorating your house.
On the other there are drivetrain mods to boost power, which appears to be really very rare in this country when it comes to supercars but far more common in the US. The way I see it the manufacturer (be it Ferrari, McLaren, Lambo, etc) probably spent hundreds of millions of pounds developing the engine, stress testing it in all weathers and all temperatures, making sure it can run reliably. If I come along and just map it to up the boost and squeeze an extra 100bhp out of it I'd be worried about what that does to reliability. And yet when someone in the US says they have got a new McLaren within 5 minutes someone will be asking how they plan to tune it; even if it's a 720S or 750S. Again; it's their car they can do what they want, but I can't imagine getting into a 750S and immediately thinking "what this car needs is more power".
John Thorne did a video a while back explaining that the last 7 engine rebuilds they had to do on a McLaren had all been remapped before they failed.
This is all anecdotal of course, I don't have any hard data on failure rates between modified and unmodified McLaren engines.
On one hand you have cosmetic modifications, like wraps, aftermarket fixed wings, alloys, etc. They are definitely looked down upon in this country, most owners see them as cheap and tacky, even though a lot of the time they are very expensive. There was a period in the late 90s when it was fairly popular for cheaper cars to be modified, in the Max Power era, but even that has passed. You do still see it from time to time on a modern supercar, but they are usually pretty light changes. Personally I used to hate the modified look, but now I just don't really care, it's the owners car and if they want to do that it's not really different than redecorating your house.
On the other there are drivetrain mods to boost power, which appears to be really very rare in this country when it comes to supercars but far more common in the US. The way I see it the manufacturer (be it Ferrari, McLaren, Lambo, etc) probably spent hundreds of millions of pounds developing the engine, stress testing it in all weathers and all temperatures, making sure it can run reliably. If I come along and just map it to up the boost and squeeze an extra 100bhp out of it I'd be worried about what that does to reliability. And yet when someone in the US says they have got a new McLaren within 5 minutes someone will be asking how they plan to tune it; even if it's a 720S or 750S. Again; it's their car they can do what they want, but I can't imagine getting into a 750S and immediately thinking "what this car needs is more power".
John Thorne did a video a while back explaining that the last 7 engine rebuilds they had to do on a McLaren had all been remapped before they failed.
This is all anecdotal of course, I don't have any hard data on failure rates between modified and unmodified McLaren engines.
PinkHouse said:
Don't forget that there's a sizeable number of US car guys that would discount a GT3 RS because it's not so good at "highway pulls"
Very true, when I was buying an Emira and on the Emira forums, the sheer quantity of US folks posting about how slow the Emira was 0-60 and the first thing they wanted to know was how to boost the power seemed to kind of miss the point of a Lotus.murphyaj said:
When we talk about mods I think it's really it can mean two very different things.
On one hand you have cosmetic modifications, like wraps, aftermarket fixed wings, alloys, etc. They are definitely looked down upon in this country, most owners see them as cheap and tacky, even though a lot of the time they are very expensive. There was a period in the late 90s when it was fairly popular for cheaper cars to be modified, in the Max Power era, but even that has passed. You do still see it from time to time on a modern supercar, but they are usually pretty light changes. Personally I used to hate the modified look, but now I just don't really care, it's the owners car and if they want to do that it's not really different than redecorating your house.
On the other there are drivetrain mods to boost power, which appears to be really very rare in this country when it comes to supercars but far more common in the US. The way I see it the manufacturer (be it Ferrari, McLaren, Lambo, etc) probably spent hundreds of millions of pounds developing the engine, stress testing it in all weathers and all temperatures, making sure it can run reliably. If I come along and just map it to up the boost and squeeze an extra 100bhp out of it I'd be worried about what that does to reliability. And yet when someone in the US says they have got a new McLaren within 5 minutes someone will be asking how they plan to tune it; even if it's a 720S or 750S. Again; it's their car they can do what they want, but I can't imagine getting into a 750S and immediately thinking "what this car needs is more power".
John Thorne did a video a while back explaining that the last 7 engine rebuilds they had to do on a McLaren had all been remapped before they failed.
This is all anecdotal of course, I don't have any hard data on failure rates between modified and unmodified McLaren engines.
Most manufacturers will tune with caution and to meet emissions, most engines have plenty more to give, I.e 570s to 600lt/620r/650s, same engine give or take.On one hand you have cosmetic modifications, like wraps, aftermarket fixed wings, alloys, etc. They are definitely looked down upon in this country, most owners see them as cheap and tacky, even though a lot of the time they are very expensive. There was a period in the late 90s when it was fairly popular for cheaper cars to be modified, in the Max Power era, but even that has passed. You do still see it from time to time on a modern supercar, but they are usually pretty light changes. Personally I used to hate the modified look, but now I just don't really care, it's the owners car and if they want to do that it's not really different than redecorating your house.
On the other there are drivetrain mods to boost power, which appears to be really very rare in this country when it comes to supercars but far more common in the US. The way I see it the manufacturer (be it Ferrari, McLaren, Lambo, etc) probably spent hundreds of millions of pounds developing the engine, stress testing it in all weathers and all temperatures, making sure it can run reliably. If I come along and just map it to up the boost and squeeze an extra 100bhp out of it I'd be worried about what that does to reliability. And yet when someone in the US says they have got a new McLaren within 5 minutes someone will be asking how they plan to tune it; even if it's a 720S or 750S. Again; it's their car they can do what they want, but I can't imagine getting into a 750S and immediately thinking "what this car needs is more power".
John Thorne did a video a while back explaining that the last 7 engine rebuilds they had to do on a McLaren had all been remapped before they failed.
This is all anecdotal of course, I don't have any hard data on failure rates between modified and unmodified McLaren engines.
The problem comes with tuners who try to push the envelope for headline figures, even thorney offers mapping covered by his warranty.
It's not for me, all mclarens are fast enough, you really don't need any more.
Herewith the engine video from John Thorn ...
https://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/mclaren-engine...
Engines good for 100k miles so long as you warm them up before working them hard and check their oil every week or so to avoid the possibility of low oil levels .... and oil starvation.
More videos to wach !
https://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/mclaren-engine...
Engines good for 100k miles so long as you warm them up before working them hard and check their oil every week or so to avoid the possibility of low oil levels .... and oil starvation.
More videos to wach !
Edited by ChrisW. on Friday 14th February 22:40
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