Where are all the 12C spiders?

[murphyaj]

I have had my eye on a 12C spider for a while now, i've been watching the market for a few years considering it to be my next move after my current Ferrari. 12C spiders have always been hard to come by, pre-2020 there were typically 8-10 on the market at any given time. The market didn't full reappear after lockdown, but there were normally 5-8 around. Now I am finally thinking it's time to jump ship to McLaren, and there are zero. None on Pistonheads or Autotrader, not even on CC for a good while.

In fact only two have even come up at all in the last 8 weeks, one of which was hopelessly overpriced and the other was perfect but I missed the boat as I wasn't quite in the position to sell my car yet (I actually tried to buy it, but the buyer for my car turned out to be dodgy and never stumped up the money).

Am I looking in the wrong places? I know they aren't exactly mass market but I'm surprised that literally nobody is selling.

[murphyaj]

haha, no sooner do I write this than one appears this morning.

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/15164243

100 grand for a left hand drive car from a non-specialist dealer. Not particularly helpful.

[Bispal]

murphyaj said:

I have had my eye on a 12C spider for a while now, i've been watching the market for a few years considering it to be my next move after my current Ferrari. 12C spiders have always been hard to come by, pre-2020 there were typically 8-10 on the market at any given time. The market didn't full reappear after lockdown, but there were normally 5-8 around. Now I am finally thinking it's time to jump ship to McLaren, and there are zero. None on Pistonheads or Autotrader, not even on CC for a good while.

In fact only two have even come up at all in the last 8 weeks, one of which was hopelessly overpriced and the other was perfect but I missed the boat as I wasn't quite in the position to sell my car yet (I actually tried to buy it, but the buyer for my car turned out to be dodgy and never stumped up the money).

Am I looking in the wrong places? I know they aren't exactly mass market but I'm surprised that literally nobody is selling.

This was inevitable, many McLaren enthusiasts have been saying this would happen this for years. 3,500 12C total worldwide production (not sure of spider / coupe split but there are more coupes). 10% to UK and this is echoed in 'How many left' with 279 12C's plus 'missing' from 2010-14 (81) = 360 RHD 12C in the UK. Around 25% spider (guess) means you have a pool of 90 cars. Its a good job you don't want a 650S coupe as there are only 18 of those as everyone went for the spider. 675LT coupe, 46 + 24 from missing = 70. The P11 cars, 12C / 650S / 675LT / P1 were not made in high numbers and the vast majority are now in enthusiast hands. Compare that to 13-15K Ferrari 458's built. I wish I had been able to keep my 12C, one of the first 100 made in the technology centre. Your best best is to contact the 3 people who between them know most of the owners and cars that 'may' be coming up for sale. Alastair Bols, Graham Davidson (Autolounge) and John Thorne. Good luck with your search, speak to the right people and something will turn up, eventually, I spent 2 years looking for a 675LT clubsport-pro in a colour I liked after i sold my 12C, so it can take a while.

[murphyaj]

I'm not sure how much to trust howmanyleft. As you state, it seems to think there are only 18 650S coupes in the UK, but given there are 9 currently up for sale either half the owners are trying to offload their car or that number is incorrect.

[Bp8575]

Also been looking at 12Cs. Given what’s going on at the moment, prices seem to be optimistic but they do seem to be selling. Thorney have one at the moment, but it’s up at £96K https://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/car/mclaren-12...

[Bispal]

murphyaj said:

I'm not sure how much to trust howmanyleft. As you state, it seems to think there are only 18 650S coupes in the UK, but given there are 9 currently up for sale either half the owners are trying to offload their car or that number is incorrect.

You can trust it almost 100% for the actual years if you include missing as its a database of all the UK registered cars. its well known 3,500 12C were produced and 10% went to the UK and HML tallies up almost perfectly with that 350/360 12C's. Its also been known for many years there are hardly any 650S coupes sold, everyone went for the spider and that's also true used. Most 12c were coupe and most 650 were spiders.

[murphyaj]

Bispal said:

You can trust it almost 100% for the actual years if you include missing as its a database of all the UK registered cars. its well known 3,500 12C were produced and 10% went to the UK and HML tallies up almost perfectly with that 350/360 12C's. Its also been known for many years there are hardly any 650S coupes sold, everyone went for the spider and that's also true used. Most 12c were coupe and most 650 were spiders.

Granted, but the numbers just seem strange. I do keep a track of these cars, I actually maintain a historic record based on parsing the autotrader website with a script. At the end of 2019 there were 35 650S's registered on the road, plus another 14 on SORN. At the same time there were 39 up for sale. It just seems highly remarkable that 80% of the entire UK stock of these cars was up for sale at the same time. Surely they can't be that bad!

[Bispal]

murphyaj said:

Bispal said:

You can trust it almost 100% for the actual years if you include missing as its a database of all the UK registered cars. its well known 3,500 12C were produced and 10% went to the UK and HML tallies up almost perfectly with that 350/360 12C's. Its also been known for many years there are hardly any 650S coupes sold, everyone went for the spider and that's also true used. Most 12c were coupe and most 650 were spiders.

Granted, but the numbers just seem strange. I do keep a track of these cars, I actually maintain a historic record based on parsing the autotrader website with a script. At the end of 2019 there were 35 650S's registered on the road, plus another 14 on SORN. At the same time there were 39 up for sale. It just seems highly remarkable that 80% of the entire UK stock of these cars was up for sale at the same time. Surely they can't be that bad!

You need to add in the 'missing' for 2015-17 for 650S. If you do that you get a total max of 526 x 650's but that could include some 675's. All the cars are there, just jumbled up. For instance my 12C was registered as an F1, was even an F1 on the V5. But overall all the cars are accounted for in the 'missing' so you can work it out. For the record the 650s is a very well sorted an reliable car. Times change there are 19 on AT and 8 on PH and I think 6 duplicates so 21 cars out of a possible 526 (will be less, need to take out 675 & P1) but even if there are 400 x 650s in the UK that's only 5% currently for sale.

[akadk]

12C spiders were / are an absolute bargain, hence why none for sale. People know what they’ve got an any upgrade will cost twice what they paid for the 12C Spider

I had my purple one last year, about for £80k, sold for £90k

[Streetbeat]

murphyaj said:

I have had my eye on a 12C spider for a while now, i've been watching the market for a few years considering it to be my next move after my current Ferrari. 12C spiders have always been hard to come by, pre-2020 there were typically 8-10 on the market at any given time. The market didn't full reappear after lockdown, but there were normally 5-8 around. Now I am finally thinking it's time to jump ship to McLaren, and there are zero. None on Pistonheads or Autotrader, not even on CC for a good while.

In fact only two have even come up at all in the last 8 weeks, one of which was hopelessly overpriced and the other was perfect but I missed the boat as I wasn't quite in the position to sell my car yet (I actually tried to buy it, but the buyer for my car turned out to be dodgy and never stumped up the money).

Am I looking in the wrong places? I know they aren't exactly mass market but I'm surprised that literally nobody is selling.

Summer has finally arrived and you are looking for a low production number spider......expect any that come to the market to be premium money. Personally i would hold off to autumn, pick up a better priced one with probably more choice and go enjoy next summer.

[PinkHouse]

Are 650 spiders selling for close to their advertised prices though? The most expensive 2016 ones listed for around £100k seem to have cap valuations around the £77-80k mark. This seems to be a £20k+ gap between asking and trade value and this margin is even higher than 570 spiders, which seem to be listed for around £10-15k above their valuations.
The most recent sale on CC was this Volcano Red(wrapped black) example for £72.6k plus fees
Obviously not a perfect example, but should you be looking to pick one up for closer to £90k than £100k to be as prudent as possible when buying?

[Bp8575]

I’ve been looking at 12Cs for a while and their advertised prices seem to be creeping close to 650s in some cases eg the one you posted from CC. Do you know the Cap values for 12C by any chance?

[davek_964]

PinkHouse said:

Are 650 spiders selling for close to their advertised prices though? The most expensive 2016 ones listed for around £100k seem to have cap valuations around the £77-80k mark. This seems to be a £20k+ gap between asking and trade value and this margin is even higher than 570 spiders, which seem to be listed for around £10-15k above their valuations.
The most recent sale on CC was this Volcano Red(wrapped black) example for £72.6k plus fees
Obviously not a perfect example, but should you be looking to pick one up for closer to £90k than £100k to be as prudent as possible when buying?

You can look - you sure as hell wouldn't get mine for £90k though.

Even my insurance company told me that cap valuations etc are unrealistically low for cars like this.

[Purso]

Collecting cars isnt representative of a market price it is much more of a trade price, no warranty (unless seller includes 1) so no going back to dealer with problems, finance very difficult to arrange so mostly cash purchases via the platform.

[PinkHouse]

davek_964 said:

PinkHouse said:

Are 650 spiders selling for close to their advertised prices though? The most expensive 2016 ones listed for around £100k seem to have cap valuations around the £77-80k mark. This seems to be a £20k+ gap between asking and trade value and this margin is even higher than 570 spiders, which seem to be listed for around £10-15k above their valuations.
The most recent sale on CC was this Volcano Red(wrapped black) example for £72.6k plus fees
Obviously not a perfect example, but should you be looking to pick one up for closer to £90k than £100k to be as prudent as possible when buying?

You can look - you sure as hell wouldn't get mine for £90k though.

Even my insurance company told me that cap valuations etc are unrealistically low for cars like this.

I agree, but when it comes time to change, the dealers usually use that as their first point of call when buying stock in

[davek_964]

PinkHouse said:

davek_964 said:

PinkHouse said:

Are 650 spiders selling for close to their advertised prices though? The most expensive 2016 ones listed for around £100k seem to have cap valuations around the £77-80k mark. This seems to be a £20k+ gap between asking and trade value and this margin is even higher than 570 spiders, which seem to be listed for around £10-15k above their valuations.
The most recent sale on CC was this Volcano Red(wrapped black) example for £72.6k plus fees
Obviously not a perfect example, but should you be looking to pick one up for closer to £90k than £100k to be as prudent as possible when buying?

You can look - you sure as hell wouldn't get mine for £90k though.

Even my insurance company told me that cap valuations etc are unrealistically low for cars like this.

I agree, but when it comes time to change, the dealers usually use that as their first point of call when buying stock in

Trade price is much lower than private sale price though. Which is why most of us don't sell back to trade.

[Nuttbelle]

The difference between Retail and Trade is no longer £10k guys especially on McLarens.

Most dealers are building in 20% margins as supercars sales are slow and stocking costs are high.

What you buy a car for at Retail is not what its worth when you have to cash it in unless its appreciated.

If you want to know the value of your car get a trade bid and you will be unpleasantly surprised I'm afraid to tell you.

Worse case I experienced was a Jardine bid which was £70k behind retail on a £250k top notch high spec low mileage desirable and limited car.

Different market nowadays and not a good time to be selling IMHO unless you have something exceptionally rare or special

[akadk]

I was perfectly happy to pay a premium price for my 650S spider as it has a off the chart carbon fibre spec (MSO CF diffuser is a winner) , was in perfect condition, sensible miles and have perfect condition and history - and a fresh service and a (I hope) reputable warranty

I could easily have paid £10k - £15k less is none of that mattered.

In this market - you get what you pay for.

[murphyaj]

Streetbeat said:

Summer has finally arrived and you are looking for a low production number spider......expect any that come to the market to be premium money. Personally i would hold off to autumn, pick up a better priced one with probably more choice and go enjoy next summer.

That's conventional wisdom, but I have been scraping autotrader prices for various supercars for years and keeping them in a database, the number of available cars doesn't tend to dip in the summer, and prices don't really change all that much.

These are the numbers for 12C spiders in previous years:
2019
June 10 cars, median price 94972
Oct 8 cars, median price 99447

2020 (covid, so the market was upside down and inside out)
June - 7 cars, median price 89989
Oct - 4 cars, median price 82447


2021
June - 3 cars, median price 83999
Oct - 2 cars, median price 89475

2022
June - 5 cars, median price 84500
Oct - 2 cars, median price 84495

We've all heard the "don't buy a convertible in summer" argument, but in every year back to 2019, with the exception of 2020 which doesn't count, there have been fewer spiders available in Autumn and asking prices have been the same or higher. With the 650 the story is a little different, as it was newer so prices were dropping fairly consistently through summer and autumn, but they certainly didn't go up in summer time and there we more cars available in June than Oct every year.

Maybe with low priced stuff like old MX-5s you might see prices go up in summer, as people see a bit of sunshine and go to buy a cheap convertible on a whim. The 12C this is an 80 grand supercar, nobody is buying one on impulse, most purchases will be months or years in the planning, so there just doesn't seem to be a seasonal factor. If anything the impression that prices are higher in summer means more are coming on the market the, leading to increased supply.

I think someone earlier got the right answer; these are great cars that the market has undervalued for a while, and more and more of them have fallen into the hands of enthusiasts who see it as a keeper and plan to hold onto it long term.

[Nuttbelle]

The moral of above story is


"He who hesitates loses "

Should of bought car in 2019 and had 4 years use for less than £15k depreciation.

That's cheap supercar motoring.
I work on losing at least £20k depreciation per annum plus dealer margin