650s - all season or winter tyres

[Kent Border Kenny]

This is slightly different question to my one on the general supercars thread.

I don’t want to need to drive my new 650s in snow or ice, but I do want to be able to enjoy it properly on a crisp, clear winter morning, and the Pirelli P-Zeros don’t seem likely to work fort that.

Would people recommend I go for sottozeros, or the like, or just Michelin Pilot Sport 4s?

If I go for the proper winter tyres I’ll get some separate rims, there seem to be unused sets of genuine ones for about £1,500 which seems like a good price.

Any opinions welcome, except any nutters who are going to insist that every tyre on Earth has equal grip at 7 Celsius.

[650spider]

I used my 650 in rain, sleet and snow and as long as i had it in comfort / comfort and in the winter traction setting it still gave you confidence to push on.

I should also add this was on P- zeros.

[Kent Border Kenny]

650spider said:

I used my 650 in rain, sleet and snow and as long as i had it in comfort / comfort and in the winter traction setting it still gave you confidence to push on.

I should also add this was on P- zeros.

Good to know, thanks,

I think that I want a spare set of rims just in case I ever need them, so may put Michelin all-season PS4s on, rather than a winter tyre, but I’ll try unsettling it a bit more first on the Pirelli’s.

[davek_964]

My Michelin were fine last winter - don't remember any issues. Haven't even used winter mode - switched it on once or twice out of curiosity but haven't found the need to use it.

[650spider]

Kent Border Kenny said:

Good to know, thanks,

I think that I want a spare set of rims just in case I ever need them, so may put Michelin all-season PS4s on, rather than a winter tyre, but I’ll try unsettling it a bit more first on the Pirelli’s.

I have always thought P-zeros were pretty crap, but the 650 always felt really planted on B roads and the original plan was to replace them with Michelin when they were worn.

However, with more time behind the wheel I felt that I would have to be driving like a lunatic to go well beyond what they and the electronics could deal with.

I am sure the Michelin are far better, but i had no real issues with the P-zero on the Mac.

[TB993tt]

Kent Border Kenny said:

Good to know, thanks,

I think that I want a spare set of rims just in case I ever need them, so may put Michelin all-season PS4s on, rather than a winter tyre, but I’ll try unsettling it a bit more first on the Pirelli’s.

Not be be too pedantic but Mich PS4S are classed as Max Performance Summer tyres not all season, that for Michelin would be the Cross Climate.

The blurb says the "Inner side has a new mix of compounds with specific “functional elastomers” and silica provide excellent WET grip and braking"

I had them on my 720 through two snowless winters and they are pretty good and importantly much better than all competitors. By chance,the Mich UK Tech manager lives up the road from me and he (totally unbiasly I'm sure - lol) reckons they are a few years ahead of the competition particularly with the Cup 2 and PS4S.

If you are on MC P Zeros currently I guarantee you will be gobsmacked at the immediate increase in traction if you fit PS4S and this just gets better (the relative increase) as the temps fall.

FWIW I have in past winters and am currently DDing my 7GT2 wearing Cup 2s and apart from ploughing straight on at low speed when cold they are actually OK, not the unusable death traps of the original Cups.

BTW congrats on the 650, I love it, great colour, and apologies for calling you a pussy, you clearly aren't

Edited by TB993tt on Friday 6th November 09:58

Edited by TB993tt on Friday 6th November 09:59

[TB993tt]

TB993tt said:

Kent Border Kenny said:

Good to know, thanks,

I think that I want a spare set of rims just in case I ever need them, so may put Michelin all-season PS4s on, rather than a winter tyre, but I’ll try unsettling it a bit more first on the Pirelli’s.

Not be be too pedantic but Mich PS4S are classed as Max Performance Summer tyres not all season, that for Michelin would be the Cross Climate.

The blurb says the "Inner side has a new mix of compounds with specific “functional elastomers” and silica provide excellent WET grip and braking"

I had them on my 720 through two snowless winters and they are pretty good and importantly much better than all competitors. By chance,the Mich UK Tech manager lives up the road from me and he (totally unbiasly I'm sure - lol) reckons they are a few years ahead of the competition particularly with the Cup 2 and PS4S.

If you are on MC P Zeros currently I guarantee you will be gobsmacked at the immediate increase in traction if you fit PS4S and this just gets better (the relative increase) as the temps fall.

FWIW I have in past winters and am currently DDing my 7GT2 wearing Cup 2s and apart from ploughing straight on at low speed when cold they are actually OK, not the unusable death traps of the original Cups.

BTW congrats on the 650, I love it, great colour, and apologies for calling you a pussy, you clearly aren't

[Kent Border Kenny]

TB993tt said:

Not be be too pedantic but Mich PS4S are classed as Max Performance Summer tyres not all season, that for Michelin would be the Cross Climate.

The blurb says the "Inner side has a new mix of compounds with specific “functional elastomers” and silica provide excellent WET grip and braking"

I had them on my 720 through two snowless winters and they are pretty good and importantly much better than all competitors. By chance,the Mich UK Tech manager lives up the road from me and he (totally unbiasly I'm sure - lol) reckons they are a few years ahead of the competition particularly with the Cup 2 and PS4S.

If you are on MC P Zeros currently I guarantee you will be gobsmacked at the immediate increase in traction if you fit PS4S and this just gets better (the relative increase) as the temps fall.

FWIW I have in past winters and am currently DDing my 7GT2 wearing Cup 2s and apart from ploughing straight on at low speed when cold they are actually OK, not the unusable death traps of the original Cups.

BTW congrats on the 650, I love it, great colour, and apologies for calling you a pussy, you clearly aren't

Thanks. I'm very tempted to get the satin black wheels that are on eBay, unused, for £1,500 so that if I do get different tyres for the winter I can make the switch more easily. Have you bothered getting a spare set?

Another option is to take the car down the road to Brands Hatch and spend a day learning how to use it properly, after which the current tyres may be ready for replacement anyway.

What I really need to do is just get out and drive it, but it's so pretty, and so clean, and all the roads around here are so covered in crap. Maybe I should stick this one on display in my lounge, and buy another, less pristine one for driving around in.

[sardis]

This is my take on it. I haven’t tried the Michelin tyres yet, but I am sure they will offer better performance than the P Zeros judging by the multiple comments both on PH and outside.

However I also believe, from my direct experience, that in cold, damp, wintery conditions, (typically below 7*C) you will be much better off on decent winter tyres to enjoy your car. You may not achieve the same ultimate level of grip, but do you really want to be at that point in Nov to Mar?

For a good enjoyable drive out the winter tyres offer the optimum experience and definitely give you more confidence and predictability.

Finally the video below to me underlines a key point, stopping distances on winter compounds in cold conditions are optimal.

https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/about-us/m...

Hope this gives food for thought. Cheers.

PS you never quite know when they might come in handy if conditions change....

Edited by sardis on Friday 6th November 10:49

[TB993tt]

sardis said:

This is my take on it. I haven’t tried the Michelin tyres yet, but I am sure they will offer better performance than the P Zeros judging by the multiple comments both on PH and outside.

However I also believe, from my direct experience, that in cold, damp, wintery conditions, (typically below 7*C) you will be much better off on decent winter tyres to enjoy your car. You may not achieve the same ultimate level of grip, but do you really want to be at that point in Nov to Mar?

For a good enjoyable drive out the winter tyres offer the optimum experience and definitely give you more confidence and predictability.

Finally the video below to me underlines a key point, stopping distances on winter compounds in cold conditions are optimal.

https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/about-us/m...

Hope this gives food for thought. Cheers.

Problem for me with winters on a car like a Mac is that they always feel a bit skwishy, yes they give more traction and grip but you still can't get on it in the cold and damp (snow is a different conversation but we haven't had decent snow for years in most of England) so yes they will be generally be safer with brake distances etc but then when you get those occasional sunny dry 8 deg C+ days and you can actually use the car properly you are quite badly compromised by the winters and this is where the PS4S will shine.....I kind of run that philosophy on my 7GT2 on the Cup 2s, there will always be a few afternoons where the temp is up over 10 and its dry and there is fun to be had.

[TB993tt]

Kent Border Kenny said:

Thanks. I'm very tempted to get the satin black wheels that are on eBay, unused, for £1,500 so that if I do get different tyres for the winter I can make the switch more easily. Have you bothered getting a spare set?
.

I didn't get a spare set for the 720 but I actually bought a spare set of nice OZs shod with Sottozeros for the 7GT2 many years ago, I never put them on and ended up flogging them.

[sardis]

TB993tt said:

Problem for me with winters on a car like a Mac is that they always feel a bit skwishy, yes they give more traction and grip but you still can't get on it in the cold and damp (snow is a different conversation but we haven't had decent snow for years in most of England) so yes they will be generally be safer with brake distances etc but then when you get those occasional sunny dry 8 deg C+ days and you can actually use the car properly you are quite badly compromised by the winters and this is where the PS4S will shine.....I kind of run that philosophy on my 7GT2 on the Cup 2s, there will always be a few afternoons where the temp is up over 10 and its dry and there is fun to be had.

That’s the nub of it really. I would typically cover about a thousand miles in the winter and 5-6 thousand miles in the summer. So for me the overall benefit outweighed the odd perfect winter day you describe and in reality I’m probably not good enough to extract the maximum benefit anyway. This is just one more factor for Kenny to consider. Mind you the point I made in my edit is that occasionally a really good day can turn quite nasty very quickly. We ended up following a Suzuki Jimny for a few miles and we were quite happy about that!

It’s all about how you plan to use the car. I never minded getting mine dirty I just bought an extension lance with angled head for my Karcher which was really useful. There is no perfect answer, unless you are happy to change wheels/tyres to suit the day I guess.
Anyway here’s to happier days and better driving.

[12pack]

Keep in mind there are two aspects to season performance, the tyre compound and the tread design including sipes.

The Michelin PS4S, even though a Max summer performance tyre, uses a silica-infused compound on the inner half, which gives it better wet performance. Coincidentally this also makes this compound softer at low temperatures, hence the better low temp performance. On my own 650s, my experience is this makes it fine to use through the winter on wet roads.

However, this does nothing for when there is a continuous ice/snow layer, where you do need a diffferent tread with sipes which is where winter tyres come in. So if you think you will drive at length on snow or ice, you need winters. If it’s wet roads and slush, the Michelin’s will be fine (with limited grip, of course).

Winter mode just limits revs from start, the same as having a sensitive foot, and won’t help you if you go for silly things. Remember your traction circle and don’t accelerate at all unless the car is lined straight.