Input needed for buying a 12c and tuning it.
Discussion
Hello gents.
Popping over from the AM/Ferrari part of Pistonheads.
Need some input as im looking to add something "fast" to my collection.
I wanted to gather some feedback from anyone here that has a tuned 12c. Or perhaps knows someone directly?
Currently I have a convertible Aston, a low-weight track car, and a GT car, but nothing stupidly fast.
So looking at car prices I think the 12C is still one of the few cars with great value and good looks ( i like the 12c look over the 650s look).
I have noticed in the states people have started performance tuning their 12c with exhaust and ECU tunes, regularly reaching 700 hp at the crank.
Wondered if anyone here knows more about this topic or is thinking of doing the same.
I know that the 12C is fast in its standard trim, but want to have this as a project to see if I can outperform a 650s or maybe even 675LT in straight line performance.
Any insights or experiences are most welcomed.
Popping over from the AM/Ferrari part of Pistonheads.
Need some input as im looking to add something "fast" to my collection.
I wanted to gather some feedback from anyone here that has a tuned 12c. Or perhaps knows someone directly?
Currently I have a convertible Aston, a low-weight track car, and a GT car, but nothing stupidly fast.
So looking at car prices I think the 12C is still one of the few cars with great value and good looks ( i like the 12c look over the 650s look).
I have noticed in the states people have started performance tuning their 12c with exhaust and ECU tunes, regularly reaching 700 hp at the crank.
Wondered if anyone here knows more about this topic or is thinking of doing the same.
I know that the 12C is fast in its standard trim, but want to have this as a project to see if I can outperform a 650s or maybe even 675LT in straight line performance.
Any insights or experiences are most welcomed.
Hi,
you need to speak to John Thorne at Thorney Motorsport.
http://www.thorney.ms/
Not only is he a McLaren tuner but he also owns a 12C and knows a lot about the cars.
He is on facebook if you want to message him
Hope that helps?
you need to speak to John Thorne at Thorney Motorsport.
http://www.thorney.ms/
Not only is he a McLaren tuner but he also owns a 12C and knows a lot about the cars.
He is on facebook if you want to message him
Hope that helps?
Have a chat with Thorney Motorsport, they've had something in development for a while now but I've no idea if its been released as yet.
http://www.mclaren-tuning.com/power.php
http://www.mclaren-tuning.com/power.php
Have you driven a standard 12C yet? Before you go the tuning route...it's quite rapid.
There's a tuned one for sale I think. It's hung around quite a while, not sure if it's because it's tuned or not.
This one:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
There's a tuned one for sale I think. It's hung around quite a while, not sure if it's because it's tuned or not.
This one:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
There is no doubt that bigger numbers can be achieved but unless you're updating hardware you're risking what's there.
The engine ran so close to the hardware limits during development. I'd be interested to hear what these tuners are doing.
I wound recommend better charge cooling to drop your temps. The knock control is going to keep most aftermarket tuners from achieving much really, so I'd be suspicious of what they've done to that of they are achieving the claimed numbers.
The engine ran so close to the hardware limits during development. I'd be interested to hear what these tuners are doing.
I wound recommend better charge cooling to drop your temps. The knock control is going to keep most aftermarket tuners from achieving much really, so I'd be suspicious of what they've done to that of they are achieving the claimed numbers.
.SELON said:
Have you driven a standard 12C yet? Before you go the tuning route...it's quite rapid.
There's a tuned one for sale I think. It's hung around quite a while, not sure if it's because it's tuned or not.
This one:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
I saw that too, when I was looking, but would you get a warranty and what gains are there really when balanced with reliability? The 12C is already so unbelievably fast and well balanced that I can't see why you would need anything faster, unless you were obsessed with track times and that extra second or 2 means something.....There's a tuned one for sale I think. It's hung around quite a while, not sure if it's because it's tuned or not.
This one:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
Wow!
Thanks for the remark guys.
Its not without dangers, because once you start upgrading...it becomes a bottomless pit.
However, I would want to have (for once in my life) a car that can do 0-100 in less than 3 secs.
This should be possible in a tuned 12C with sticky tyres (with the right conditions).
Currently I have a 550 maranello, V12 vantage roadster, Opel Speedster with supercharger for the track. Im just missing a powermachine that I can go all out on.
Thanks for the remarks, Will contact the UK tuner and see what they say. I just need to find a good spec 12C for around 120K euro. Are prices rising on these cars as well or are they stable? Preferrably I would like to buy after summer as I dont have space, but if prices are rising now might be a good time???
Thanks again for all the input.
Thanks for the remark guys.
Its not without dangers, because once you start upgrading...it becomes a bottomless pit.
However, I would want to have (for once in my life) a car that can do 0-100 in less than 3 secs.
This should be possible in a tuned 12C with sticky tyres (with the right conditions).
Currently I have a 550 maranello, V12 vantage roadster, Opel Speedster with supercharger for the track. Im just missing a powermachine that I can go all out on.
Thanks for the remarks, Will contact the UK tuner and see what they say. I just need to find a good spec 12C for around 120K euro. Are prices rising on these cars as well or are they stable? Preferrably I would like to buy after summer as I dont have space, but if prices are rising now might be a good time???
Thanks again for all the input.
dmitsi said:
There is no doubt that bigger numbers can be achieved but unless you're updating hardware you're risking what's there.
The engine ran so close to the hardware limits during development. I'd be interested to hear what these tuners are doing.
I wound recommend better charge cooling to drop your temps. The knock control is going to keep most aftermarket tuners from achieving much really, so I'd be suspicious of what they've done to that of they are achieving the claimed numbers.
I dont think its been run at anywhere near the limits.The engine ran so close to the hardware limits during development. I'd be interested to hear what these tuners are doing.
I wound recommend better charge cooling to drop your temps. The knock control is going to keep most aftermarket tuners from achieving much really, so I'd be suspicious of what they've done to that of they are achieving the claimed numbers.
I have a hard time believing that McLaren changed 60% of the car to gain 25 hp??? Really dont believe it. I know geometrics have changed as well.
In the states there are users on mclarenlife.com which have 716 hp at the crank and running fine for a while already.
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-lounge/2...
Having said that, I want to dig deep and im aware that hardware changes wil be needed. Running the car cooler seems a priority. The goal would be to spend 120k on a car and a further 20k on the mods. For 140k euro I can scratch my sub-3-sec itch in style.
Just to give my credentials, I developed the mp4 12c, I work in test operations for ricardo. It is run very close to hardware limits at rated power and this was on calibrated testbeds. I know how much of a challenge it was to get 625 and keep it within safe limits. Bear in mind we monitor everything. Cylinder pressure and all the instruments that could feasibly limit the output of the engine, Pmax, peak knock, dbl, turbine speed and temp limits, etc.
Whilst I don't doubt people are pushing the engine, I do not believe it can be done within safe tolerances as I know those tolerances better than most people ever will.
There are certainly gains to be made in lower speed torque which in itself would be more worthwhile. However if those claimed numbers are coming through the level of accurate dynos that we work with I'd be very very surprised.
If you want some cheap gains, upgrade the plugs, stick a better air filter on and run it on 102ron.
Whilst I don't doubt people are pushing the engine, I do not believe it can be done within safe tolerances as I know those tolerances better than most people ever will.
There are certainly gains to be made in lower speed torque which in itself would be more worthwhile. However if those claimed numbers are coming through the level of accurate dynos that we work with I'd be very very surprised.
If you want some cheap gains, upgrade the plugs, stick a better air filter on and run it on 102ron.
dmitsi said:
Just to give my credentials, I developed the mp4 12c, I work in test operations for ricardo. It is run very close to hardware limits at rated power and this was on calibrated testbeds. I know how much of a challenge it was to get 625 and keep it within safe limits. Bear in mind we monitor everything. Cylinder pressure and all the instruments that could feasibly limit the output of the engine, Pmax, peak knock, dbl, turbine speed and temp limits, etc.
Whilst I don't doubt people are pushing the engine, I do not believe it can be done within safe tolerances as I know those tolerances better than most people ever will.
There are certainly gains to be made in lower speed torque which in itself would be more worthwhile. However if those claimed numbers are coming through the level of accurate dynos that we work with I'd be very very surprised.
If you want some cheap gains, upgrade the plugs, stick a better air filter on and run it on 102ron.
Great post Whilst I don't doubt people are pushing the engine, I do not believe it can be done within safe tolerances as I know those tolerances better than most people ever will.
There are certainly gains to be made in lower speed torque which in itself would be more worthwhile. However if those claimed numbers are coming through the level of accurate dynos that we work with I'd be very very surprised.
If you want some cheap gains, upgrade the plugs, stick a better air filter on and run it on 102ron.
dmitsi said:
I'd be more than happy to come along to a Mclaren meet to share some stories. Unfortunately my job doesn't pay enough to have my own Mclaren.
I'm on the south coast so if there are any meets down here let me know and I'll come along.
Now that sounds like the start of a plan...There are quite a few southerners on here.I'm on the south coast so if there are any meets down here let me know and I'll come along.
This is what we've done thus far:
Catback exhaust (similar to mcl sports exhaust) gains 5bhp or so mainly top end. Released and available
Full system (200 cell race cats) gains 15-20bhp more bottom end and mid range. Released and available
Remap, can gain up to 60bhp but 90bhp mid range. Not released
The reason we've not released the mapping side is that there is no way to Dyno the car without the full mcl diagnostic kit to stop the Rev limit kicking in. We borrowed it for development on our own car but that's impractical for customer cars each time and we won't map a car like this without it going on the Dyno. As a result we won't sell it yet.
I won't doubt others claims on the engine as I'm sure they are accurate but it is capable of a lot more without issue, indeed there are very few failures worldwide reported that are not attributed to other issues. It's also helped by the fact that the stock car has excellent cooling, especially when you consider the location of the engine.
Catback exhaust (similar to mcl sports exhaust) gains 5bhp or so mainly top end. Released and available
Full system (200 cell race cats) gains 15-20bhp more bottom end and mid range. Released and available
Remap, can gain up to 60bhp but 90bhp mid range. Not released
The reason we've not released the mapping side is that there is no way to Dyno the car without the full mcl diagnostic kit to stop the Rev limit kicking in. We borrowed it for development on our own car but that's impractical for customer cars each time and we won't map a car like this without it going on the Dyno. As a result we won't sell it yet.
I won't doubt others claims on the engine as I'm sure they are accurate but it is capable of a lot more without issue, indeed there are very few failures worldwide reported that are not attributed to other issues. It's also helped by the fact that the stock car has excellent cooling, especially when you consider the location of the engine.
Do you develop on chassis dynos? As I said there are mid range gains available. I spent a lot of my life at 7500 chasing peak power.
When I see claims of huge power gains I struggle to understand how these can be done safely, but I was always constrained to the set limits. However some of those limits are generously high and pushed hard, hence my disbelief that it can be done properly.
However, give a car a transient power sweep with some over egged settings and you'll probably see some big numbers.
Is it safe? I guess in reality it doesn't stay there long enough to really test it. When you develop an engine steady state you soon found out what is realistic.
Where are you based Thorney? It wound be nice to chat to you properly about all of it.
When I see claims of huge power gains I struggle to understand how these can be done safely, but I was always constrained to the set limits. However some of those limits are generously high and pushed hard, hence my disbelief that it can be done properly.
However, give a car a transient power sweep with some over egged settings and you'll probably see some big numbers.
Is it safe? I guess in reality it doesn't stay there long enough to really test it. When you develop an engine steady state you soon found out what is realistic.
Where are you based Thorney? It wound be nice to chat to you properly about all of it.
dmitsi:
Thanks for your insights and time to answer our questions.
What do you think realistically is possible? Gain midrange power via pure ECU tuning? How about in combination with hardware updates?
Could you also perhaps share insights on which elements of the hardware are closest to the safety margin?
If so, is the 650s really hardware-wise so much different to the 12C in order to gain 25 hp?
In case anyone is interested: here is a topic example of mclarenlife.com where tunes are being installed and tested. There are a few others as well. So far no issues (which doesnt guarantee anything)
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-mp4-12c/...
Thanks for your insights and time to answer our questions.
What do you think realistically is possible? Gain midrange power via pure ECU tuning? How about in combination with hardware updates?
Could you also perhaps share insights on which elements of the hardware are closest to the safety margin?
If so, is the 650s really hardware-wise so much different to the 12C in order to gain 25 hp?
In case anyone is interested: here is a topic example of mclarenlife.com where tunes are being installed and tested. There are a few others as well. So far no issues (which doesnt guarantee anything)
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-mp4-12c/...
Edited by Brakke on Monday 11th April 22:04
Edited by Brakke on Monday 11th April 22:22
SELON said:
dmitsi said:
I'd be more than happy to come along to a Mclaren meet to share some stories. Unfortunately my job doesn't pay enough to have my own Mclaren.
I'm on the south coast so if there are any meets down here let me know and I'll come along.
Now that sounds like the start of a plan...There are quite a few southerners on here.I'm on the south coast so if there are any meets down here let me know and I'll come along.
Probably shouldn't ask but will anyway, what's the likelihood of a V10 or V12 for the next one
The biggest limits were turbo based on temp and speed which is a tricky place to be to push further. Add more boost to cool the turbo and you increase the turbo speed. The limitation of charge cooling was a big factor. Running hot gives rise to det when pushing so hard so it becomes another obstacle to achieving your target.
The 650 had a few tweaks, noticeably pistons and increased cooling. The increase in cooling really opens up more potential.
Realistically I couldn't give a number to what it could achieve mid range. We don't get the luxury to explore that as tight schedules and targets mean you spend your time on the job in hand.
For a start you should go for the 675 as your base. A better filter and racing plugs will deliver more than expected. The turbo has increased capabilities on the 675 as well as improved exhaust. Alongside the changes seen in the 650 you have more potential. The discussion being about the mp4 is where I raise my questions. Although I know a lot about the mp4 which is still the base cal the others were worked off; I know less about the calibration changes made to them as by then I was probably working on a 3 cyl diesel and resting after a pretty intensive few years.
The 650 had a few tweaks, noticeably pistons and increased cooling. The increase in cooling really opens up more potential.
Realistically I couldn't give a number to what it could achieve mid range. We don't get the luxury to explore that as tight schedules and targets mean you spend your time on the job in hand.
For a start you should go for the 675 as your base. A better filter and racing plugs will deliver more than expected. The turbo has increased capabilities on the 675 as well as improved exhaust. Alongside the changes seen in the 650 you have more potential. The discussion being about the mp4 is where I raise my questions. Although I know a lot about the mp4 which is still the base cal the others were worked off; I know less about the calibration changes made to them as by then I was probably working on a 3 cyl diesel and resting after a pretty intensive few years.
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