CCB's - 12c

[Sarnie]

Ignoring the eye watering cost, would it be possible to simply swap out steel discs for CCB discs?

Are the calipers any different?

Anything else different on cars that come with CCB's vs cars that come with steels?

[ChrisW.]

According to Alistair Bols around 15% of cars have CCB's --- I guess he also would know what the prospects might be for aftermarket fit of callipers and discs --- I'm sure the sizes are different.

Have there been any scrapped 12c's ?

Are any companies refurbishing these ? You might ask SICOM or ??

Is there any disadvantage to not keeping a 12c standard ??

[Sarnie]

ChrisW. said:

--- I guess he also would know what the prospects might be for aftermarket fit of callipers and discs

For reference, I'm not talking about aftermarket discs, my question is in reference to swapping OEM steel discs for OEM CCB discs. I know the CCB's are bigger but are the calipers any different to compensate?

If not, is it a simple straight swap? Anything else required?

[TISPKJ]

Fairly sure the ceramics are physically bigger if you look at the pictures of various cars for sale, which would mean in turn that the callipers and pads are also bigger.
That said the ceramics on mine are one of my favourite items, wheels and side of car never get dirty which is a big plus.

[isaldiri]

Calipers are different, 6 piston for the ccb on the front and a bigger one on the rear. Iron rotor sizes are smaller too 370/350 vs 394/380 ccb and they have different pad shapes. Oh and only the ceramic rotor cars have the brake cooling ducts and the cooling ducts cannot be retrofitted to the iron brakes as they attach to the calipers and you don't want to ask about the cost of caliper swap......

If you don't track the car I wouldn't worry about ccb replacement costs although ceramic pads are pretty damn pricey. Edit - you can fit pagid rsc1s rather than oem at a much better price but have heard varying things about rotor wear with them. Again, almost certainly will not be an issue outside track use.

Edited by isaldiri on Tuesday 29th December 23:40

[SELON]

Glad you like the CCBs TISPKJ. I had them on my Aston - fantastic things. Great for keeping the wheels clean and also the braking. You will really notice the difference when you take the car on track.

There seem to be very few 12Cs with the CCBs - again due to the 'expert' journalists early reviews. Good to hear another myth has been busted by real customer experience.

[Sarnie]

isaldiri said:

Calipers are different, 6 piston for the ccb on the front and a bigger one on the rear. Iron rotor sizes are smaller too 370/350 vs 394/380 ccb and they have different pad shapes. Oh and only the ceramic rotor cars have the brake cooling ducts and the cooling ducts cannot be retrofitted to the iron brakes as they attach to the calipers and you don't want to ask about the cost of caliper swap......

If you don't track the car I wouldn't worry about ccb replacement costs although ceramic pads are pretty damn pricey. Edit - you can fit pagid rsc1s rather than oem at a much better price but have heard varying things about rotor wear with them. Again, almost certainly will not be an issue outside track use.

Edited by isaldiri on Tuesday 29th December 23:40

Thanks, just what I was looking for with regards to the differing calipers, much appreciated!

[TISPKJ]

Im assuming you have your eye on this little package for xmas pressie to yourself.

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/parts-and-p...

I have dealt with these guys and they are 100% genuine.

[AMDBSNick]

SELON said:

Glad you like the CCBs TISPKJ. I had them on my Aston - fantastic things. Great for keeping the wheels clean and also the braking. You will really notice the difference when you take the car on track.

What you will also notice is that if you track your car several times you will need to replace the CCB's. That is one fking expensive exercise for a few track days. In addition if the Mac is similar to the Aston it also affects the DSC if you go from steels to CCB's

Unless you drive like Lewis H on a track, want clean wheels and adore the looks I really would not bother...

[isaldiri]

AMDBSNick said:

What you will also notice is that if you track your car several times you will need to replace the CCB's. That is one fking expensive exercise for a few track days. In addition if the Mac is similar to the Aston it also affects the DSC if you go from steels to CCB's

Well, that is also true of any high powered CCB equipped car that you may be tracking so hardly McLaren specific. Albeit it is I admit compounded by the fact that the McLaren makes pretty heavy use of the rear brakes instead of a limited slip differential. As far as I could tell and I hasten to add I'm nothing special a driver at all, there is no ESC/DSC type differences on the 12c between the ceramic and iron rotors. It would be more than a bit odd if there was just due to the brakes to be honest I would have thought.....

It's a seriously quick car but still ultimately a road car - driving it properly on track unfortunately means pretty considerable costs on consumables, even on the iron rotors as the OEM pads will last 3 days if you're lucky.

[AMDBSNick]

isaldiri said:

AMDBSNick said:

What you will also notice is that if you track your car several times you will need to replace the CCB's. That is one fking expensive exercise for a few track days. In addition if the Mac is similar to the Aston it also affects the DSC if you go from steels to CCB's

Well, that is also true of any high powered CCB equipped car that you may be tracking so hardly McLaren specific. Albeit it is I admit compounded by the fact that the McLaren makes pretty heavy use of the rear brakes instead of a limited slip differential. As far as I could tell and I hasten to add I'm nothing special a driver at all, there is no ESC/DSC type differences on the 12c between the ceramic and iron rotors. It would be more than a bit odd if there was just due to the brakes to be honest I would have thought.....

It's a seriously quick car but still ultimately a road car - driving it properly on track unfortunately means pretty considerable costs on consumables, even on the iron rotors as the OEM pads will last 3 days if you're lucky.

Sorry I wasn't suggesting it was McLaren specific or indeed Aston. My point is that a lot of people are under the impression that CCB's are indestructible which is clearly not the case.

My understanding from an ex Aston factory engineer is that the programming for ESC/DSC is different for the two types of rotors. Obviously i have no idea if it is the same for McLaren. I was just giving a heads up just in case..

[ChrisW.]

It's certainly the case for Porsche.

Regarding likely life in track use, I got 34k miles out of PCCB's on a Cayman R which included around 5k of track miles.

This included careful cooling down after each session and replacing pads when half used to manage heat soak into the brake fluid ....

However, there are companies now refurbishing worn CCB's a very sensible prices ... I replaced mine on the CR for less than £5000 including fitting and pads. The refurbished discs were guaranteed for 1 year and 10,000 miles.

I reckon that given my usage, steels on the CR would have cost me the same but without all the CCB advantages. PSM also uses the brakes to manage stability, but the CR does include a LSD.

I would not choose to track a 12c in the way that I now intend to track my GT4 --- I'm sure that it would do it, it just wouldn't feel "right". The faster the car, the greater the "consumption" in spirited use ...

Hence my 12c is strictly for road use where the CCB's are to me, fantastic for all the reasons mentioned.

[isaldiri]

Chris - is the sicom refurb guarantee inclusive of track use for that 1 year? A friend with a 675 who tracks the car a lot and is awfully quick that would likely be very interested if it does.

[AMDBSNick]

ChrisW. said:

It's certainly the case for Porsche.

Regarding likely life in track use, I got 34k miles out of PCCB's on a Cayman R which included around 5k of track miles.

This included careful cooling down after each session and replacing pads when half used to manage heat soak into the brake fluid ....

However, there are companies now refurbishing worn CCB's a very sensible prices ... I replaced mine on the CR for less than £5000 including fitting and pads. The refurbished discs were guaranteed for 1 year and 10,000 miles.

I reckon that given my usage, steels on the CR would have cost me the same but without all the CCB advantages. PSM also uses the brakes to manage stability, but the CR does include a LSD.

I would not choose to track a 12c in the way that I now intend to track my GT4 --- I'm sure that it would do it, it just wouldn't feel "right". The faster the car, the greater the "consumption" in spirited use ...

Hence my 12c is strictly for road use where the CCB's are to me, fantastic for all the reasons mentioned.

I guess your CR weighs a touch less than my DBS

[ChrisW.]

isaldiri said:

Chris - is the sicom refurb guarantee inclusive of track use for that 1 year? A friend with a 675 who tracks the car a lot and is awfully quick that would likely be very interested if it does.

I was told that it was without limit.

Of course, any racing driver could quickly dispose of any set of brakes if so minded --- but bear in mind that they had seen my old discs at four years and 34000 miles --- and I hope I'm not hanging around ---

[ChrisW.]

AMDBSNick said:

I guess your CR weighs a touch less than my DBS

Yes -- 1295 kilos before extras --- pccb's less some --- PDK plus some ---

Which is why the GT4 appeals so much with it's 991 GT3RS carbon brakes and 100bhp and 100 kilos less power and weight respectively ---

But if I do need to refurbish them, I now know that I (we) can, and at reasonable cost.

I guess this now is also the same with the MP4-12c.

[cgt2]

My 430 CCB's were on an exchange basis with Sicom and cost me around £2k. A fraction of what most dealers would charge. Usually a dealer sneezing in the vicinity of a ceramic brake is £5k before anything.

[isaldiri]

ChrisW. said:

I was told that it was without limit.

Of course, any racing driver could quickly dispose of any set of brakes if so minded --- but bear in mind that they had seen my old discs at four years and 34000 miles --- and I hope I'm not hanging around ---

Thanks. That's good to know, will let him know in that case. I know he went through the rear rotors on a cc equipped 12c in ~5-6 trackdays so the sicom refurb would be definitely useful.